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Mris
08-08-2012, 05:15 AM
So, I realized tonight, I still have HDex as one of my tributes after the nerf, and started looking for a replacement. I ended up with HAgi, for now (already have HStr) but something else caught my eye.

There's a tribute called Eyes of the Hunter, which claims to increase your accuracy. Two questions on this, though. First, the description makes it sound somewhat archery related, so I'm wondering if this is a range-only tribute. Second, if it does work on melee, I'm wondering if it's related to worn accuracy, or if it's something actually worth using. (As in, if your worn accuracy is capped, does this change anything at all?)

If anyone knows, thanks in advance. If nobody does... Well, I might get around to parsing it... someday. (Not a thorough parse, mind you, just enough to see if it works on max-accuracy melee. Crap is crap, no matter the reason.)

Maereax
08-08-2012, 02:31 PM
Pretty sure it only works if you're not already capped. Nothing to back this up though

Nedrom
08-08-2012, 02:50 PM
All tribute works like worn mods.

tanecho
08-10-2012, 10:51 PM
It's not accuracy though, if you activate it your accuracy stat does not increase. It's something else, whether or not it has stacking issues with other things I do not know, but tribute is easy enough to come by and I keep it and the flurry chance on most of the time.

Nedrom
08-12-2012, 10:36 PM
It's not accuracy though, if you activate it your accuracy stat does not increase. It's something else, whether or not it has stacking issues with other things I do not know, but tribute is easy enough to come by and I keep it and the flurry chance on most of the time.

It sure is accuracy:

http://lucy.allakhazam.com/itemlist.html?searchtext=benefit%3A+accuracy

As I mentioned, Tribute works like worn mods on gear. It won't allow you to go over any of the hard caps for those mods.

tanecho
10-09-2012, 06:36 PM
If you actually look at those items, it's a spell effect Accuracy VII, and not the statistic accuracy that caps at 150. I have 198 accuracy stat, and I did 30 minute parses with and without the tribute active (since not trying to calculate DPS, and simply a binary hit/miss mechanic, I feel 10000 instances was more than sufficient).

Without: 78.1% accuracy
With: 80.3% accuracy

Rten
10-09-2012, 10:25 PM
Interesting Parse, but because of the nature of statistics, you really need to do about a 4 hour parse to be reasonaly normalized, and 8 hour parses are much better.

I will try and kick off the same parse in the next week if I get a chance.

Nedrom
10-10-2012, 04:56 PM
If you actually look at those items, it's a spell effect Accuracy VII, and not the statistic accuracy that caps at 150. I have 198 accuracy stat, and I did 30 minute parses with and without the tribute active (since not trying to calculate DPS, and simply a binary hit/miss mechanic, I feel 10000 instances was more than sufficient).

Without: 78.1% accuracy
With: 80.3% accuracy

30 minutes is not long enough.

Parse 20+ hours and you've got a valid parse.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 07:55 AM
As stated, I wasn't determining a DPS number, but a simple binary mechanic. It doesn't require the same level of scrutiny to determine statistical accuracy. Regardless, I ran 8+ hours on each. Buffs did not change between parses, only variable was tribute toggled on and off. If you don't think a quarter million checks can determine the percentage chance of a binary variable with confidence that you are accurate within 1%, you need to go retake statistics. I threw the DPS numbers in for a bonus, they won't be as accurate in determining the exact amount of the change from the tribute, but I can say with confidence that there is a difference.

Full raid buffs sans Brutal Ferocity, no temporary buffs (zan fi, infusion, drunken monkey, etc.), 10% overhaste, standard clicks you'd expect from a T3 monk.

Without: 77.9% accuracy (253039 attempts, 55864 misses)
29 flurries per min
9484.5 dps

With accuracy tribute: 80.3% accuracy (305510 attempts, 60228 misses)
28.9 flurries per min
9844.2 dps

With accuracy and flurry tribute: 80.3% accuracy (285924 attempts, 56438 misses)
32.4 flurries per min
9947.5 dps

The interesting thing to me is that the accuracy tribute is a larger contributor to my DPS than flurry is, I did not expect that. Regardless, combined they appear to increase my unmodified autoattack damage by about 5% (I would attribute approximately 4% to the accuracy and 1% to the flurry). I would be interested to see the interactions with bard songs / epic, but I don't really care that much to do it myself. I'm convinced with my results, you can dismiss them if you like.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 10:16 AM
I parsed the flurry tribute years ago and it showed absolutely no benefit. No surprise there.

My parses were on the eqlive forums but the old ones are gone now along with my results.

I'm not convinced that your accuracy tribute is working, your parse sample is not large enough and a ~2% difference is well within the limits of error and RNG.

Ughbash
10-11-2012, 10:28 AM
As stated, I wasn't determining a DPS number, but a simple binary mechanic. It doesn't require the same level of scrutiny to determine statistical accuracy. Regardless, I ran 8+ hours on each. Buffs did not change between parses, only variable was tribute toggled on and off. If you don't think a quarter million checks can determine the percentage chance of a binary variable with confidence that you are accurate within 1%, you need to go retake statistics. I threw the DPS numbers in for a bonus, they won't be as accurate in determining the exact amount of the change from the tribute, but I can say with confidence that there is a difference.

Full raid buffs sans Brutal Ferocity, no temporary buffs (zan fi, infusion, drunken monkey, etc.), 10% overhaste, standard clicks you'd expect from a T3 monk.

Without: 77.9% accuracy (253039 attempts, 55864 misses)
29 flurries per min
9484.5 dps

With accuracy tribute: 80.3% accuracy (305510 attempts, 60228 misses)
28.9 flurries per min
9844.2 dps

With accuracy and flurry tribute: 80.3% accuracy (285924 attempts, 56438 misses)
32.4 flurries per min
9947.5 dps

The interesting thing to me is that the accuracy tribute is a larger contributor to my DPS than flurry is, I did not expect that. Regardless, combined they appear to increase my unmodified autoattack damage by about 5% (I would attribute approximately 4% to the accuracy and 1% to the flurry). I would be interested to see the interactions with bard songs / epic, but I don't really care that much to do it myself. I'm convinced with my results, you can dismiss them if you like.

Thanks for the parse.... looks like I need to add accuracy to my tribute.

Aggememnon
10-11-2012, 11:17 AM
Can we get accuracy added to our disciplines in RoF?

Rten
10-11-2012, 11:54 AM
Thank you for running the longer parses... I will be adding it to my lineup too!

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 12:20 PM
you need to go retake statistics.

(I would attribute approximately 4% to the accuracy

77.9 to 80.3 is 2.4 not 4

Mris
10-11-2012, 12:28 PM
I parsed the flurry tribute years ago and it showed absolutely no benefit. No surprise there.

My parses were on the eqlive forums but the old ones are gone now along with my results.

I'm not convinced that your accuracy tribute is working, your parse sample is not large enough and a ~2% difference is well within the limits of error and RNG.

Gonna paraphrase from a book here. "...doesn't believe the sun rises without three kinds of proof, and if one day it should fail to rise, would only be proven right in not believing."

As to flurry trib, something may have changed since you parsed it, but my own parses from a year ago agree with these ones. (Though mine showed less of an increase in flurries, likely due to more triple attack and newer buffs. DPS increase will obviously fluctuate with a number of factors.) More accurate to say that the benefit is small, but present, than not there at all.

And just for ref - http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36482
Some of that is outdated, but it supports the flurry parse, at least.

Thanks for the parses. I, too, will be adding accuracy to my trib line up.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 12:33 PM
As to flurry trib, something may have changed since you parsed it, but my own parses from a year ago agree with these ones.
And just for ref - http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36482
Some of that is outdated, but it supports the flurry parse, at least.

I accept your flurry parses, the accuracy one (from Tanecho) I do not.

If one other player parses it with the same results, then I will accept it.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 12:33 PM
77.9 to 80.3 is 2.4 not 4

Actually, its 3.1. The accuracy itself increases by 2.4%, but total expected hits in the same number of attempts would be 80.3/77.9 or 103.1% of the previous amount.

I stated the DPS statistics are there just for show and I do not expect them to be accurate. I also stated that I do not know exactly what the accuracy VII effect does. For all I know, instead of a miss it causes a max hit, which would make that difference make sense.

Want to pick everything apart? Be my guest, but come with data instead of quoting 2 year old parses you can't even provide a link to.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 12:43 PM
come with data instead of quoting 2 year old parses you can't even provide a link to.

I have never parsed tribute accuracy.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 12:47 PM
Actually, its 3.1. The accuracy itself increases by 2.4%, but total expected hits in the same number of attempts would be 80.3/77.9 or 103.1% of the previous amount.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

The accuracy is an increase of 2.4% from your parses.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 01:04 PM
Correct, the ACCURACY is an increase of 2.4%, Accuracy and DPS are not computed in the same manner. Accuracy is the number of hits / number of attempts. if you are accurate 77.9% of the time on 1000 attacks, you will have connected with 779 attacks on which DPS calculations will occur. If you are accurate 80.3% of the time, you will have connected with 803 attacks.

779 * 1.024 = 797.7 attacks, which is not what occurs with a 2.4% accuracy increase.

Again, I do not claim the DPS numbers to be exact, it is impossible to parse something with 100% certainty, and it becomes more difficult when it is not something binary like hit/miss. But I am confident that there is an existing difference that is large enough to make me continue investing in this tribute.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 01:14 PM
See, this is why there is a problem, we're talking different numbers.

Here is what makes sense to me based on the parses you provided, and maybe this is what you were getting at from the beginning, however, you did not specify what the 4% increase was relating to.

So...

Without: 77.9% accuracy (253039 attempts, 55864 misses) -- BASELINE
29 flurries per min -- BASELINE
9484.5 dps -- BASELINE

With accuracy tribute: 80.3% accuracy (305510 attempts, 60228 misses) (2.4% increase in accuracy)
28.9 flurries per min
9844.2 dps (3.6% increase in DPS)

With accuracy and flurry tribute: 80.3% accuracy (285924 attempts, 56438 misses) (2.4% increase in accuracy)
32.4 flurries per min (10.49% increase in flurries)
9947.5 dps (4.6% increase in DPS)

tanecho
10-11-2012, 01:29 PM
It was in reference to the damage number I eyeballed to be 5% increase split into two pieces for the two kinds of tribute. It calculates to your 3.6, of which I feel 3.1 is explained by the simple % change in accuracy.

It being the 4%

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 01:48 PM
Yup, I'd still like to see another parse done on the accuracy part though just to confirm the boost. Just to rule out any discrepancies.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 01:54 PM
That's fair, but I can't do it. I just feel there should be more cautious optimism than skepticism until proven or disproven. Its a large enough discrepancy for that.

Ughbash
10-11-2012, 01:55 PM
Nedrom,

To explain Tanecho's math.

If you had 10 dollars and I gave you 1 dollar you would have 10 percent more money.

If you had 77.9 dollars and I gave you 2.4 dollars you would have 3.1 percent more money.

An Accuracy increase from 77.9 swings out of 100 to 80.3 swings out of 100 is an increase of 2.4 swings out of 100 BUT your accuracy went up by 3.1 percent.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 01:58 PM
Nedrom,

To explain Tanecho's math.

If you had 10 dollars and I gave you 1 dollar you would have 10 percent more money.

If you had 77.9 dollars and I gave you 2.4 dollars you would have 3.1 percent more money.

An Accuracy increase from 77.9 swings out of 100 to 80.3 swings out of 100 is an increase of 2.4 swings out of 100 BUT your accuracy went up by 3.1 percent.

I think you missed a post, we were talking about two completely different things. We're past this already.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 02:00 PM
That's fair, but I can't do it. I just feel there should be more cautious optimism than skepticism until proven or disproven. Its a large enough discrepancy for that.

Perhaps, but there is nothing wrong in pressing to make sure that parses are accurate. Don't take it personally.

Mris
10-11-2012, 02:07 PM
I'm starting some parses right now on this tribute. The character I'm using is a little old, since /testcopy was down last I knew, but with my schedule in the coming days, my parses should come out decently long. (I prefer to use test rather than GH, so I don't get any "friendly drive-by buffing" from guildies.) I'll post them in a couple days.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 02:17 PM
I didn't have a test copy :(

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 02:36 PM
I didn't have a test copy :(

If you didn't have a test copy how did you keep your buffs from expiring on live?

Mris
10-11-2012, 02:47 PM
If you didn't have a test copy how did you keep your buffs from expiring on live?

Probably used the guild hall test dummies. Perfectly acceptable, and buffs won't expire in the GH, I just don't like them as well for reasons stated above.

tanecho
10-11-2012, 02:58 PM
I wish I could use my house instead of gh, but that's where I did it

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 03:09 PM
Probably used the guild hall test dummies. Perfectly acceptable, and buffs won't expire in the GH, I just don't like them as well for reasons stated above.

Ahh, the new guild hall bit is new to me, i never use it.

Mris
10-11-2012, 04:00 PM
Apparently I chose a bad time for this. Test went down after I started, and I'm leaving for work, so I'll have to restart again later.

Edit: BTW Ned, if you want to test out the GH stuff, you can buy the test dummies in the neighborhood zone. They cost (iirc) around 100 plat, and they are different levels for different ones. Buy, place in GH (won't go in a house) and enjoy. They aren't as modable as the Test Arena ones, in fact, the only thing you can change is how they look (need the quested clicky to do this) and you can't make them regen your end/mana, but still useful. If you don't have a GH, you only need 12 in guild to place one on a guild plot, and the "standard" GH is really cheap, if small, and can have items placed in it. It is vendor sold in the neighborhood zone. There are 2 merchants for guildhalls/accessories, look on those. There's a somewhat bigger one on those merchants, too, but more expensive.

Nedrom
10-11-2012, 04:13 PM
Apparently I chose a bad time for this. Test went down after I started, and I'm leaving for work, so I'll have to restart again later.

Edit: BTW Ned, if you want to test out the GH stuff, you can buy the test dummies in the neighborhood zone. They cost (iirc) around 100 plat, and they are different levels for different ones. Buy, place in GH (won't go in a house) and enjoy. They aren't as modable as the Test Arena ones, in fact, the only thing you can change is how they look (need the quested clicky to do this) and you can't make them regen your end/mana, but still useful. If you don't have a GH, you only need 12 in guild to place one on a guild plot, and the "standard" GH is really cheap, if small, and can have items placed in it. It is vendor sold in the neighborhood zone. There are 2 merchants for guildhalls/accessories, look on those. There's a somewhat bigger one on those merchants, too, but more expensive.

Cool, thanks for the tip, but I don't parse anymore, kinda worn out from that stuff I'm sure you can understand as I did it for so many years.

Lots of new monks out there that can do it for us :)

Mris
10-14-2012, 03:29 AM
And the results are in.

w/o trib: 76.0% accuracy
w/ trib: 78.6% accuracy

Both parses are over 12 hours.

Nedrom
10-15-2012, 09:30 AM
And the results are in.

w/o trib: 76.0% accuracy
w/ trib: 78.6% accuracy

Both parses are over 12 hours.

Thanks for the parses, looks like it does stack with worn +Accuracy mods.

Archus
10-15-2012, 11:01 AM
This is great stuff. Thanks for the parses guys. Wonder if the other melee classes know as this should have implications for them as well.

Sokon
03-14-2013, 03:57 AM
holy shit, i'm just seeing this.

I think Nedrom f'd me 2 years ago with those parses he cannot "find" now.

Thanks for parsing guys.

/shakes fist at Nedrom

bad monkly business!

Nedrom
03-14-2013, 01:08 PM
Has been parsed a few times, last time was Mris in 2011:

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36482&highlight=fury+combat

My post from 2008 that showed that it was flurry not double attack that the GUI stated and I did parse in 2006 on the EQLive forums and that post is gone since they have new forums. In 2006 it was only a 2 dps increase on an 8 hour+ parse.

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18864

I did a parse in 2011 but it was in guild forums, since Mris already parsed in in 2011 I didn't see the need to repost here, but I thought I had.

What's interesting is in 2011 it was only 2 extra flurries per minute and Rten's parse shows 4 now.

Nedrom
03-14-2013, 01:09 PM
Rten's post from this month showing 4 extra flurries:

http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37877&highlight=fury

Maereax
03-14-2013, 01:20 PM
The old one was done with a 20 delay weapon in primary and 18 in secondary, new was done with the reverse. Also the old was done with chanter haste, iirc, chanter haste adds flurry chance. Could have been related?

Nedrom
03-14-2013, 01:41 PM
Well that might explain why in 2011 it parsed out 2 flurries and today it parsed out 4.

Someone is going to have to reparse it! Not me!

tanecho
03-14-2013, 01:48 PM
It's an obvious benefit that will beat the pants off any tribute other than eyes... All I need to know.