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WongLow Qsraider
01-22-2008, 11:45 PM
on Aro fight (long fight)

#1 Zerker bot --- 1746dps
(2.0 single group nuke augs) (900 aa spent)
#2 Wonglow - 1717dps
(2.5 w/ 1dmg -Cold Nuke type 4 aug(fc single) ...+3dmg Lifetap type 8 aug(DK) With Tonfa in offhand with Tris +3dmg aug** All offensive AA's except Attack cap Increase (2200ish aa spent)

#3 ..Rog -- Embershank + 2.0 in offhand (ember has Demi base dmg aug) 2.0 has type 4 dmg aug and type 8 Tunat dmg aug 600aa
(doesn't play much outside of raids)
#4 Rog (no tss weaps) 300ish aa
#5 Ranger ( Hatchet Sword (Swiftcleave) + 2.5
#6 Monk (2.0 + tonfa ...+ 3 dmg base aug in 2.0 ...Tonfa = +2 dmg tunat aug)
#7 Ranger (5dps behind #6 monk) no tss weaps 2.5 + Vish whip
#8 Wiz
#9 Wiz
#10 Monk (2.0 +tonfa)

Thats as close as Ive gotten to that Berserker in the past 6months , he usually gets me by 100-200dps with his 2.0 n nuke procs

And I think the only reason Im that close now is finally got 2.5 and DK aug + most all of my offensive aa's maxed.
I flip flop with that 600AA rog , if he were to get some aa's and some accuracy items he would smoke me consistantly.

nduma
01-23-2008, 12:02 PM
Before we can interpret this information

1) What was the group make up ?
2) How long was the fight ?
3) What discs were used ?
4) 7th year vet used by bot and not you ?

Timing of discs, Volley etc makes a big difference. Is the BoT being Macroquested ? Seems so if a BoT melee can be that efficient.

This is assuming you are playing at optimal level offcourse and doing everything right in timing your discs.

Like the design team likes to point out, data presented by players often is presented to point out a particular point.

Monks definitely aren't in great shape as far as DPS goes but, I've never been beaten by a boxed char with equal gear, even a rogue.

Maereax
01-23-2008, 04:10 PM
You're assuming said bot is the toon being botted. I've been in situations where my "bot" was being played more then my main. In this case, maybe the "bot" is being played and the main being ignored? Just a possibility.

nduma
01-23-2008, 04:50 PM
True, point is the information is hard to comment on without more detail.

I am also sure that there is probably people that are great at boxing a melee. Was just pointing out there could be a lot of factors as to why the BoT char does better.

Raptyr Tailfist
01-23-2008, 04:55 PM
Why does everyone say "7th year vet" instead of it's proper name? Im curious since everyone seems to do it.

Since I took a 2yr vacation, Im not actually sure which is the 7th year reward, so I never know what you're talking about, altho I am fairly certain it's not Throne.

nduma
01-23-2008, 05:34 PM
Intensity of the Resolute ... not sure how 7th year vet became the name it goes by but, it is what it is.

Reyla the Gnome
01-24-2008, 01:53 AM
At the cost of getting flamed...

I retired my Monk at 70 and now play an 80 Necromancer as my main. Apples and Oranges if we compare DPS there.

I also started a Berserker who is now at 62 with epic 1.0 and frankly, all they can do is DPS. Even a boxed Zerker should out DPS a Monk since that is the only reason for their existence.

Monks take FD for granted I think because we are used to having it but something has to be traded...has to be given up for that one singularly amazing ability. I am oversimplifying, I know but being behind a Berserker in DPS, bot or not, as a Monk is not an outrage.

Just my 2 coppers.

Ugle
01-24-2008, 05:51 AM
Right, because it's not like Berserkers can snare, hold agro, have higher AC, do ranged DPS, or MGB a raid <insert snarky comment about sometimes it's the player not the class>. That's like saying all Shaman can do is slow so we shouldn't care if they did more DPS then us. FD is great, does that also mean that Paladins should lose all of their agro tools because they get LoH?

Is a Berserker called upon to use all of the tools he has during a raid? If you have more then 1-2 Monks (or for a lot of raid events even 0 ), that Berserker will use his abilities more often then those Monks will use FD.

Ughbash
01-24-2008, 09:18 AM
Monks take FD for granted I think because we are used to having it but something has to be traded...has to be given up for that one singularly amazing ability.

Would trade it in a heartbeat for paladins Slay Undead ability. And that is without even asking for their spell book or Plate AC :)

Kikshaiz
01-24-2008, 09:50 AM
or the fact that berserkers get the knight HP table.

Maereax
01-24-2008, 04:08 PM
or the fact that berserkers get the knight HP table.

Monks get the knight AC table though...

WongLow Qsraider
01-24-2008, 06:24 PM
Before we can interpret this information

1) What was the group make up ?



2) How long was the fight ?



3) What discs were used ?


4) 7th year vet used by bot and not you ?




#5--Timing of discs, Volley etc makes a big difference. Is the BoT being Macroquested ? Seems so if a BoT melee can be that efficient.



#6 --This is assuming you are playing at optimal level offcourse and doing everything right in timing your discs.

#7 Like the design team likes to point out, data presented by players often is presented to point out a particular point.

#8 --Monks definitely aren't in great shape as far as DPS goes but, I've never been beaten by a boxed char with equal gear, even a rogue.

#1-- I had a shaman with 2.0 , He had a shaman with 2.0

The other monks on the list were in the berserkers group (ie got to use his aura)
I was not.

#2 --- 7mins

#3 -- I used Speed Focus + Destructive Force + Scaled Fist rk2 , + Heel of Kanji + Wheel of fists Rk2 , + 7th year vet AA + Glpyh of Destruction (after Shm Epic click wore off I used Glpyh , then before the fight ended i got another Shm epic click)

#4 -- Hahah no , He doesn't have 7th Vet AA nor would any berserker who was the first charactor created on said account. I however do have 7th vet AA

#5 -- Not Macro'd , he uses a 2 comp setup , its not that hard he just puts his ranger on auto attack , hits the ae ring he has *hits everyone aro ring* and plays his zerker on dps fights.

#6-- I can't think of anything else I could have done , especially considering I was #1 vs this same zerker when we were going thru tacvi and early on in Anguish , after he got his 2.0 I never really caught up with him again consistantly.

#7-- How else could I present said data when 90% of the time he beats me on parses and has done so for the past year ish. Should I use parse data from the 1 outta 10 fights he dies on early ?

#8-- Thats because you have never went up against a decently botted berserker with a 2.0 vs your demistyle weapons.


We have been parsing since our Timeplane Raids 2 years ago
Monks and Rogs were always #1 thru #4

With our best AA'd rogues ALWAYS beating myself and the other monks
Fastforward to Tacvi and we aquired a ranger with a berserker bot , and while he stayed behind us in tacvi , once he got his 2.0 we never caught up with him again.

I do pass him ocassionally but only when he dies frankly or is under the effect of a slow spell that i manage to resist or get cured.

My Melee Foci > than his
My Worn Accuracy > than his
My weapon augs > than his
My Dps AA count includeing new sof Dps aa > than his

none of it matters , he's a berserker ...botted with substandard armor ..foci ...aa and he still wins.

Granted when our top two best AA'd rogues are on they manage to beat the berserker.

Gijo
01-24-2008, 09:13 PM
#4 -- Hahah no , He doesn't have 7th Vet AA nor would any berserker who was the first charactor created on said account. I however do have 7th vet AA


I thought each year you could add another character to the amount of years you've been credited and they'd have the same AA's available as the others?

Athilik
01-24-2008, 09:38 PM
Yes you can Gijo, but he referred to the toon being the first one on the account, which would exclude the entire berserker class.

And I would trade my FD button for the 30% DPS boost, (more) reliable snare, AE warcries, their kick ass (not bugged) aura.

santino
01-24-2008, 09:40 PM
I thought each year you could add another character to the amount of years you've been credited and they'd have the same AA's available as the others?

Yeah, but he is saying the berserker was the person's first character on the account, which means the account is no older than when berserkers were introduced. That may or may not have been 7 years ago, when you add in the 1-2 yr subscriptions, of course. Regardless, if he does not have it, he does not have it.

I agree it was a weird sentence though.

silenzhandz
01-25-2008, 12:22 AM
Monks get the knight AC table though...

But not the boost in SoF rangers and other classes got. So that nullifies that.

As for the OP topic, not surprise at all a zerker bot is beating you, rangers and beasts are ahead now.

Screwed by the devs again, ah well. I am sure the devs got a chuckle out of screwing us over SoF.

Maereax
01-25-2008, 02:23 AM
But not the boost in SoF rangers and other classes got. So that nullifies that.

Emm... monks got a HUGE boost in AC from SoF.... our armor is in line with plate and chain now, as is silk...

netura
01-25-2008, 02:29 AM
And I would trade my FD button for the 30% DPS boost, (more) reliable snare, AE warcries, their kick ass (not bugged) aura.

Riiight, would you trade all self-healing utilities as well?

Ughbash
01-25-2008, 08:52 AM
Monks get the knight AC table though...


Monks do NOT have the Knight AC table.

Monks get the same OVERCAP RETURN as knights.

So lets assume for the sake of argument that this is 3 displayed AC = 1 Real AC.
Lets assume monks have a 1600 AC soft cap (possibly a bit high for what we have).
Lets assume Knights have a 2k AC soft cap (Probalby low for what they have).

A Knight with 2k worn ac has a real AC of 2k.
A monk with 2k Worn ac has a real AC of 1733.

A monk needs a 2800 worn AC to match the 2k AC of a knight. Now from this point on we get the same bonus as a knight for AC, BUT it puts us 800 in the hole to start with.

Now Top end monks may have 3500 AC IF they focus on AC. Top end Knights can have 5k AC if they focus on AC. This is becase Plate has signifigantly better AC then leather (though we at least have stopped the gap from widening this expansion). This means a Top End Knight has an advantage of 2300 AC (1500 + 800 for higher soft cap) as well as a better HP table.

This is why I would like ALL classes to display REAL AC, rather then the more or less meaningless AC displayed in our GUI.

We were in FC1 last night hoping to get AC augs (but instead the mossy dropped :( ). It was amazing how well even the rangers tanked. Rangers with less displayed AC then me took damage far better then I can.

Would love to see a parse of how a 3500 AC ranger took Damage as compared to a 3500 AC monk (bearing in mind it is easier for the ranger to get 3500 AC) and they will have I believe more HP then a monk at that point.

Basically forget about comparing us to knights, we can't even stand up to smart rangers now.

silenzhandz
01-25-2008, 01:14 PM
Emm... monks got a HUGE boost in AC from SoF.... our armor is in line with plate and chain now, as is silk...

I am not talking about ac on armor, I thought that was pretty obvious.

nduma
01-25-2008, 01:30 PM
#2 --- 7mins

#3 -- I used Speed Focus + Destructive Force + Scaled Fist rk2 , + Heel of Kanji + Wheel of fists Rk2 , + 7th year vet AA + Glpyh of Destruction (after Shm Epic click wore off I used Glpyh , then before the fight ended i got another Shm epic click)

Are you using SF or Scaled Fist during shaman click ? At least from my experience you get more out of it if using Scaled Fist + shaman epic with Wheel for chance to crit big.

Assuming you are not using 7th year, Glyph and Scaled at the same time. What about overhaste ? Bard in either group ?




#6-- I can't think of anything else I could have done , especially considering I was #1 vs this same zerker when we were going thru tacvi and early on in Anguish , after he got his 2.0 I never really caught up with him again consistantly.




#7-- How else could I present said data when 90% of the time he beats me on parses and has done so for the past year ish. Should I use parse data from the 1 outta 10 fights he dies on early?

Well for one - you made one post outlining highlights about 1 fight. There was no mention in your original post about him beating you for the past year. Then other than just flat DPS number, there is no information like number of hits, accuracy, crit percent, showing average hit. Now you followed up with information like better Focii/Mods2 and even then with what you've provided - there are so many factors, like timing of discs, one stayed in range and other didn't, buffs, skill.

Look at the kind of detail that goes into many of the parses Wycca and Nedrom put together, showing hours long parses and they still get told, it's player data to show a particular argument argument. Don't take it personally but, if you want to try present that we are not in good shape, then you need to be a lot more thorough and accept being questioned. Convincing us is not going to be hard, convincing others will.

Did you read Merloc's comment in the Dev chat about adjusting weapons in SoF over Xmas and he is seeing how that plays out. You are telling us that you have vastly superior weapons, +7 more damage added to your 2.0, plus 3 more damage added to your offhand compared to a zerker with just basic procs and are still being beaten. Merloc certainly didn't make that drastic a change to monk weapons in SoF, so maybe you should present him your parse data from the last year and see what he says.



#8-- Thats because you have never went up against a decently botted berserker with a 2.0 vs your demistyle weapons.


Well like you said, he isn't really being botted, the ranger seems to be the bot and the zerker getting played on DPS fights. Got nothing to do with my demi-style weapons.



I thought each year you could add another character to the amount of years you've been credited and they'd have the same AA's available as the others?

Think he was trying to highlight how stupid my question was for not knowing the berserker was the first character on the account created ;). But, as you can see, it's not outside the realm of possibility that a Zerker toon can have access to 7th year vet.

Gensis
01-25-2008, 01:38 PM
Does this guy keep a magelo for his zerker? If not can you get or give us numbers for accuracy, combat effects, focii, all that jazz? Ask him what discs he used, when he used them, the whole shabang. You've got all spells and discs showing up in your logs, right? Can use it to put together a picture of what happened and when, really dissect the difference in dps.

Athilik
01-25-2008, 07:26 PM
Riiight, would you trade all self-healing utilities as well?

Nice bit of sarcasm there for words I never typed. The answer? No I wouldn't, but my response was directed at Reyla. My point was FD isn't the be all, end all a lot make it out to be; Because if it was we wouldn't have fallen so far behind bards on pulling. Do I think Berserkers have it better? Yep, but that's treading into the territory of calling for nerfs.

WongLow Qsraider
01-26-2008, 05:18 AM
Are you using SF or Scaled Fist during shaman click ? At least from my experience you get more out of it if using Scaled Fist + shaman epic with Wheel for chance to crit big.

I use Speed focus during first shaman click , Scaled Fist During 2nd Shaman click , and Heel of Kanji During the Glyph inbetween.



Assuming you are not using 7th year, Glyph and Scaled at the same time. What about overhaste ? Bard in either group ?

No bard in either group , I have Tacvi Overhaste Clicky Ring from Supersnake I still click it.










Well for one - you made one post outlining highlights about 1 fight. There was no mention in your original post about him beating you for the past year. Then other than just flat DPS number, there is no information like number of hits, accuracy, crit percent, showing average hit. Now you followed up with information like better Focii/Mods2 and even then with what you've provided - there are so many factors, like timing of discs, one stayed in range and other didn't, buffs, skill.

If you noticed , I did say that was as close as I have gotten to that berserker over the past 6months. Being that none of the other monks beat him either , one would have to conclude that either all our monks are doing subpar as per their potential currently
(and just had good luck from Timplane to First 3/4 Keldo's in Anguish)

Or that a zerker in full Katta single group armor is beating us consistantly with nuke procs in his 2.0.


Mind you this was going on prior to SoF and our damage table advantage shrinking , and I mentioned it with a seperate parse on this very board back then.

Weapon (augs) Have allowed me to go from a 200dps disadvantage on average to a 70ish dps disadvantage on average , while his weapons and his weapon procs havn't changed , Ive gotten 2.5 ...Fc +1 aug , DK +3 w/lifetap aug and +3 Tris aug in offhand + SoF aa's and cleave VI and more accuracy







Look at the kind of detail that goes into many of the parses Wycca and Nedrom put together, showing hours long parses and they still get told, it's player data to show a particular argument argument. Don't take it personally but, if you want to try present that we are not in good shape, then you need to be a lot more thorough and accept being questioned. Convincing us is not going to be hard, convincing others will.

I don't think I need to try to present that we are in Poor shape when its clear that in demi era weapons we are at an extreme disadvantage vs atleast Berserkers , Perhaps the devs intend that to be the case , regardless I posted this out of embarassment that a zerker twink was beating me and has been for along time now.




Did you read Merloc's comment in the Dev chat about adjusting weapons in SoF over Xmas and he is seeing how that plays out. You are telling us that you have vastly superior weapons, +7 more damage added to your 2.0, plus 3 more damage added to your offhand compared to a zerker with just basic procs and are still being beaten. Merloc certainly didn't make that drastic a change to monk weapons in SoF, so maybe you should present him your parse data from the last year and see what he says.

Adjusting Weapons in Content I can't fight in , isn't going to do me nor the other 90% of monks in Everquest ANY good right now.But then I doubt they care about such things , as they have never showed a tendancy too in the past. Which is while I'll save my Merloc Pm's till after we beat Soltaris sometime this year.




Well like you said, he isn't really being botted, the ranger seems to be the bot and the zerker getting played on DPS fights. Got nothing to do with my demi-style weapons.

Ah but he is a bot , meaning Ive been raiding with this same guild for 2 and 1/2 to 3 years , with 80% + RA that entire stint , From having a hard time in phase 4 timeplane , to Beating DK , Verg Instance , West /East AG and first 3 mobs in North AG inside a 3month span (maybe 4?)

He got geared in katta missions and the ocassional rot lewt on last run thru Anguish.

Im geared by the guild and my gear makeup is pretty relevant to the content my guild is doing ...Im not really far behind the curve for the mobs we are capable of defeating.







Think he was trying to highlight how stupid my question was for not knowing the berserker was the first character on the account created ;). But, as you can see, it's not outside the realm of possibility that a Zerker toon can have access to 7th year vet.

I was just making a point that its likely that many berserkers don't have 7th vet AA , where as alot of folks might assume they all do.

I don't take anyone's questions personally , however I have to assure them that i didn't fall off the tutorial yesterday , Ive been playing since Kunark.

I remember warriors with Redsword + VP 1h having issues taunting off monks with Ton Po Sticks

we just fell along way over time gradually , while the rest of the EQ world kept insisting that monks were overpowered.
Honestly tho , we were overpowered in Kunark and Velious...not so much sense
and perhaps we shouldn't give way on the dmg charts when a zerker is so horribly undergeared and less advanced thru AA's vs our charator.

Trukoflanys
01-26-2008, 12:29 PM
You really need Bard overhaste to bring out the true potential of SF. Not having max overhaste hurts monks more on Burn fights then any other class.

Crazy
01-26-2008, 02:10 PM
One thing I'd like to see from the parse is total damage, not DPS. if the zerker started the fight before or after you did, then the DPS count can be askewed by a longer/shorter duration. In my guild, we don't care about DPS numbers on burn fights, we care about the TOTAL damage done, I feel it more shows who's working it and who's slacking.

Fastin
01-26-2008, 05:34 PM
Emm... monks got a HUGE boost in AC from SoF.... our armor is in line with plate and chain now, as is silk...

That's great and all, but we aren't running around in sof gear. Now if leather ac was retro changed I would see your point.

Speaking of, why wasn't it retro changed and what are the chances of them fixing it now?

Archus
01-26-2008, 10:39 PM
That's great and all, but we aren't running around in sof gear. Now if leather ac was retro changed I would see your point.

Speaking of, why wasn't it retro changed and what are the chances of them fixing it now?

I would say the chances of them fixing it now are zero. They have said they will not upgrade solteris raid item AC, and if they won't retroactively do that, then they are not touching anything else pre-SoF either.