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View Full Version : Last Blood getting nerfed



Fatal
12-08-2007, 03:55 AM
Due to a few tanks on the EQforums complaining about last bloods being too powerful in the new cultural armor sets, they will be nerfing the last blood augs.

Personally, this pisses me off. My guild is raiding DPOB. We are stocking up on these, and now they are getting nerfed because lvl 80 armor with 80 symbol, and a last blood is better than TSS gear, if you dont include focuses.



http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=124585#1759762

A lot of pissed off people in that thread.

Raydor
12-08-2007, 04:08 AM
but in the end the gear is simply too good for what goes into getting it and its not fair to the players who have struggled through the difficult content to earn the rewards for someone else to be able to come in with a 4 expansion old item and instantly purchase their way into equivalent gear.

Now, I havent been playing much at all in the past months...but isn't exactly what they did with the new SoF groupable/dropable gear? I've seen some of the tradeable gear, and I was stunned lol.

Athilik
12-08-2007, 04:12 AM
At least the way Ngreth is changing it my Last blood + 70 armor and 70 symbol equals the same as before.

I'm mixed feelings on this, but I'd say how Ngreth is changing it is better overall for the casual player (the target audience in my opinion) since it move more stats onto the armor and symbol. This screws over any raider who has a lesser seal in greater armor though and certainly makes last blood a whole lot less valuable to anyone not wearing the 70 armor 70 symbol set. Correct me if I read Ngreth's post wrong.


Info from: http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=124557

Fatal
12-08-2007, 04:16 AM
To me, it's the same old thing of the Ubers having the gear, using it for two years, and then wanting it nerfed. The aug hasn't changed. If it's a problem with the new cultural, fix the armor.

Asking for an item to be nerfed after you have used it for 2 years and have now moved on is pure bullshit.

But that's just my opinion.

Leksikon
12-08-2007, 05:29 AM
It's all bullshit.

Kaliaila
12-08-2007, 06:24 AM
Well they do the same stuff as always, contrary to what they say. The only way to get what you want is to whine. And apparently calls for nerfs are the way to go. Just takes 2-3 weeks of a handful of players one the Live Servers to whine about something and repeatedly call for it to be nerfed for that to happen, well at least if those people complaining are the high end raider personalities who are always calling for others to be nerfed.

Senliten
12-08-2007, 06:39 AM
Well they do the same stuff as always, contrary to what they say. The only way to get what you want is to whine. And apparently calls for nerfs are the way to go. Just takes 2-3 weeks of a handful of players one the Live Servers to whine about something and repeatedly call for it to be nerfed for that to happen, well at least if those people complaining are the high end raider personalities who are always calling for others to be nerfed.

Heh soon enoguh probably before half way point for the next expansion release.. Alot will say "OMG ITS TAKNIG TO LONG TO REACH END GAME CONTENT!!!ONEZEROONE!!!!" and "NERF IT SO WE CAN PLAY HOW WE WANT"

seriously if people cry nerf to shorten raid content cause its taking to long to progress.. then i have pitty to SoE well maybe none at all to meet those demands of those asking for it ..

Why pamper and give caviar to those who whine and cry when they taste the sweetness of it.. It will leave bitterness demanding more... -_-

Benadebx
12-08-2007, 07:28 AM
It's a load of shit, but honestly.... I can kinda see why they are doing it, coz my guild farms DK now and will be starting AG soon ish, and a lot of us are sporting 550-750hp items atm, which is very overpowering for the current raiding we are doing.

It's crap, but understandable. :(

Kaliaila
12-08-2007, 07:57 AM
Umm there were people sporting 550-750hp gear starting to farm DK pre-SoF. Not as many I'll give you that, but now DK is 3 expansions out of date. It shouldn't matter what gear the people are wearing when they are starting to farm it. You have to realize that this has absolutely nothing to do with the actual people farming the content and everything to do with the ego's of those who are way beyond it or never intend to do that content.

Taiichii
12-08-2007, 09:50 AM
An easier way of fixing this problem would be to put different aug slots on different level armor. 70 armor sets would use last bloods, 75 something else, 80 something else. Make Last Bloods type 40, TSS ones type 41, SoF ones type 42. Something like that would be just fine and easy to do I am sure.

Ughbash
12-08-2007, 10:49 AM
Gee

I have 6 last bloods.

Have been working on getting new armor.

Only managed to get 1 sublime and 2 elegant (third elegant was destroyed on combine and marrow not salvaged).

Anyone got some vaseline? cause my ass just got torn up so bad it is bleeding.

Mris
12-08-2007, 01:06 PM
Ya know, it didn't take long for me to start believing that maybe not having the cash to jump on the cultural bandwagon wasn't a bad thing. "It's too good," I thought, "It'll get nerfed soon."

Well, SOMETHING is getting nerfed, just that instead of new cultural, it's the last bloods that drop from the content my guild is raiding.

I suppose next they'll decide Bazu seals come too close to lastbloods, and we'll hear the nerf bat swing again. (And hit the wrong target, or at least in the wrong fashion, once again, no doubt.)

Rukirn
12-08-2007, 01:19 PM
To me, it's the same old thing of the Ubers having the gear, using it for two years, and then wanting it nerfed. The aug hasn't changed. If it's a problem with the new cultural, fix the armor.

Asking for an item to be nerfed after you have used it for 2 years and have now moved on is pure bullshit.

But that's just my opinion.
My thoughts exactly.

The last bloods have existed for a long, long time. From the beginning they allowed you to reach much higher AC on TS'd armor than what was dropped (depending on class, slot 7 aug, etc) but similar HPs. Now that they introduce new armor and new symbols, all of a sudden they need to nerf down the last blood augs. Lame.

The other really lame part was the repeated message from Ngreth that its current status was "intended" and would not be changed. "Okay" I thought - some people are whining loudly, but the devs are making a conscious effort to shove mid-tier raiders forward. Now I spend time farming for ingredients and some hard-earned pp and come to find out it actually *is* going to get nerfed. Double lame.

Mris
12-08-2007, 01:55 PM
Wow, just attempted to read through that thread, and got through the first page, scanned the last page, and decided it's not worth it. But a thought I had...

If they simply added slot 12 drops from tier 1/2 SoF, would it shut everybody up? LB doesn't get hit with the nerf bat, high end raiders have something better than LB to hold them until they get tier 3/4 augs, and the highest end content doesn't get changed at all.

Not sure of the REAL issue, but most people seem to think it has to do with old raid content vs. new raid content vs. new group content. So toss a balance in there for early-high ends, and everybody wins?

Maereax
12-08-2007, 04:16 PM
Wow, just attempted to read through that thread, and got through the first page, scanned the last page, and decided it's not worth it. But a thought I had...

If they simply added slot 12 drops from tier 1/2 SoF, would it shut everybody up? LB doesn't get hit with the nerf bat, high end raiders have something better than LB to hold them until they get tier 3/4 augs, and the highest end content doesn't get changed at all.

Not sure of the REAL issue, but most people seem to think it has to do with old raid content vs. new raid content vs. new group content. So toss a balance in there for early-high ends, and everybody wins?

It's not a bad idea, but the whole nerf came about because one @#$%ing little war newbie got upset that someone came CLOSE to his magelo, and so he whined to the devs.

cellic
12-08-2007, 07:17 PM
I doubt they did this just because a few people were whining... this is a very unpopular decision, that will certainly lead to several people cancelling their accounts. So, a couple whiners wouldn't be nearly enough justification for them to create such an outrage as is shown on EQBoards. They made a mistake putting this armor in game in the first place, and then another mistake when they didn't listen to player feedback during beta. They're trying to correct that mistake now, but the damage is done.

Fatal
12-08-2007, 08:03 PM
dont forget the part where they posted and said several times that the armor was fine and where they intended it to be.

People spent a lot of money based on that.

wycca
12-08-2007, 08:09 PM
The "nerf" was needed. LB augged Cultural was pretty damn equal to our Tier 3 raid armor set for example. The only major differences were the focus and clicky, and thats just not much. The base stats were damn similar - with the cultural actually having an advantage in a few areas.

Basically the armor sets will not change, but you're no longer going to be able to get armor comparable Meldrath Mansion raids just by knocking off a 2-3 group Valik or a 4-man Shyra (for Solt armor) and having a few things tailored. Sorry, but that was just wrong.

Fatal
12-08-2007, 08:18 PM
So why nerf last bloods? What the hell does that have to do with new armor sets?

I find it damn funny that the people who have used Last Bloods for the last 2 years and are now past them, all of a sudden think last bloods are over powered.

Please, explain how that fits in to the "this nerf is needed" category again?

Because they are no longer useful to those people, they become over powered?

If the armor is over powered, nerf it. Not the last bloods. The exact same people calling for the nerfs now are the exact same people that fought for last bloods not to be nerfed 2 years ago. flip. flop. flip. flop.

WFSBelaar
12-08-2007, 09:45 PM
The "nerf" was needed. LB augged Cultural was pretty damn equal to our Tier 3 raid armor set for example. The only major differences were the focus and clicky, and thats just not much. The base stats were damn similar - with the cultural actually having an advantage in a few areas.

Basically the armor sets will not change, but you're no longer going to be able to get armor comparable Meldrath Mansion raids just by knocking off a 2-3 group Valik or a 4-man Shyra (for Solt armor) and having a few things tailored. Sorry, but that was just wrong.

Bullshit. All through Beta and since SoF opened they have been saying that the cultural is right where they wanted it.. Suddenly a bolt of lightning hits the dev team and they understand the problem? Bullshit

This is the best example of the devs caving yet. Better than the wizard nerf, better than all the other mere coincidences, where the nerfs just happened to follow an epic grandiose whine thread.

Bullshit.

Fastin
12-08-2007, 09:50 PM
BS or not the playerbase knew damn well that 80 ts and lb was to good. Yes they screwed up bad with this...but that doesn't change the fact that its broken.

Kheibik
12-08-2007, 10:57 PM
BS or not the playerbase knew damn well that 80 ts and lb was to good. Yes they screwed up bad with this...but that doesn't change the fact that its broken.

Arguable the same thing could be said for all the easily groupable tier 4 gear that renders all mid tier raiding gear largely worthless. It's funny, but I know a guy who got his alt monk a full set of tier 4 gear in the time since SoF launched, and pushed his monk up to almost 17k unbuffed, with more AC than most TSS level monks as the new SoF group armor has way more AC than old leather armor did. The claim that the group armor is too powerful and should be nerfed could be made the as well, but instead of nerfing that as well, they only nerf the armor that was offensive to those in Solteris. It's really a matter of which perspective it's being looked at from.

WFSBelaar
12-08-2007, 11:09 PM
BS or not the playerbase knew damn well that 80 ts and lb was to good. Yes they screwed up bad with this...but that doesn't change the fact that its broken.

Yes we did, HOWEVA the devs REPEATEDLY declared all was well (IE not broken). The "insiders" and devs are always saying that the devs don't listen to the whines of the players in balance...

Yet we got stagnated overall in SoF (monks DPS is too good), cultural is annonced to likely be obliterated in january (sorry i do not believe for a single second they are CAPABLE of doing it right Hello DS, Reptile and tunare nerfs the result of warrior whinefests BTW!) Wizards instants were nerfed, (hello druid whine threads).

This likely would not have been a problem whatsoever had TSS raid gear not been a smoldering pile of feces. Defend the nerfing of the stats all you want, shit i agree with ya.. But this shit should not have made it out of BETA if it was sooo overpowered...I dare anyone to say with a straight face to say this was not the direct result of that thread.

Wwann
12-09-2007, 12:37 AM
So..... another f#$% up in a long line of complete f#$% ups and all I see is people whining that the gear is too powerful.... stiff shit as we used to say in the old days. Now how about fixing the game for f#$% sake, and stop nerfing everything to hell and back. I play 3 main toons, monk, sk and chanter... chanter has never been worth shit since soe has no clue on the class.. the sk has been nerfed with their DS stuff.. my monk is the only one I even consider logging on to atm and all I hear about is nerf this..nerf that... "oooooooo, its much too powerful for a level 80 non raider to have!!" or.."i have no real life and my e-penis is getting smaller because my super raiding guild demands that I play 24/7 and I dont want any 'grouper' who has a life, wife and kids to get the same "enjoyment" out of the content that I do, do fuck them and let them eat shit and die in 2 rounds like they always should!!!":

Damn, time to take my meds I think!.....

Fastin
12-09-2007, 12:37 AM
I wasn't in Beta, however I would more than assume that the playerbase told SoE that the junk was funk. I know this all sucks, especially for those that got screwed hard by it...I honestly don't know what to say to these people. It's 100% unfair that people got hosed, but there is a reason why I didn't touch the stuff, and still wont till after the new year.

As far as why didn't people complain when they were using last bloods vs now, well I think it's different. Your LB stats overall do not and will not change if your still using the old cultural stuff, this LB change will only be effected if your trying to plug in the LB into an 75/80 TS Set. Could they have done a better job of testing this before it went live? Yes. Did they handle it horribly wrong? Yes. Is the current LB/TS gear overpowered for the effort required to get it? Yes!

Your hitting up Demiplane at 80, basically turning it into some very trival content. Which is fine! But expecting to pull down TSS/TBS gear out of Demiplane is frankly absurd. Why should my guild or any guild for that matter work through TSS atm, or TBS? When all we need to do is roll back through Demi and beat the crap out of it and plut in some LB's into 80 TS gear.

I know my view isn't popular as I can see from the SoE thread. Honestly though how can anyone feel that the gear was appropriate for the effort required to get it? Regardless, I'm sorry for people who got pwned by SoE over this...how they handled it is 100% unfair and BS. Now though is the time to pick up the pieces and try to make the best of it.

Fastin
12-09-2007, 12:39 AM
Arguable the same thing could be said for all the easily groupable tier 4 gear that renders all mid tier raiding gear largely worthless. It's funny, but I know a guy who got his alt monk a full set of tier 4 gear in the time since SoF launched, and pushed his monk up to almost 17k unbuffed, with more AC than most TSS level monks as the new SoF group armor has way more AC than old leather armor did. The claim that the group armor is too powerful and should be nerfed could be made the as well, but instead of nerfing that as well, they only nerf the armor that was offensive to those in Solteris. It's really a matter of which perspective it's being looked at from.

I'm sorry Easily groupable Tier 4 gear on a alt no less? Rot loot perhaps?

Fatal
12-09-2007, 12:53 AM
Your hitting up Demiplane at 80, basically turning it into some very trival content. Which is fine! But expecting to pull down TSS/TBS gear out of Demiplane is frankly absurd. Why should my guild or any guild for that matter work through TSS atm, or TBS? When all we need to do is roll back through Demi and beat the crap out of it and plut in some LB's into 80 TS gear.


I expect to get exactly the same loot everyone else got when they beat it. The LB with the over the top AC on it. Just because you don't use it anymore, nerf it?

Fastin
12-09-2007, 12:57 AM
I expect to get exactly the same loot everyone else got when they beat it. The LB with the over the top AC on it. Just because you don't use it anymore, nerf it?

And you still do get that same loot that we did. IF you put it in a 70 TS Set. It will equal the exact same stats as when the others had it. However you can't drop it in the 80 level set and leapfrog ahead.

Gensis
12-09-2007, 01:41 AM
The difficulty of obtaining LB augs has decreased below the point that we devs see fit with the release of SoF such that we have decided to adjust them to be more in-line with the difficulty.

Also, the difficulty in obtaining Elaborate armor and Eminent symbols is far too high, so we'll be increasing their stats to compensate for the differences in difficulty to obtain LB augs.

Yeah, that works fine.

BrueFromXev
12-09-2007, 04:06 AM
Why not just nerf the new armor/seals and buff the raid augs to balance the "sets"? Doesn't that make everyone happy?

1. 80 + 80 + LB isn't too powerful any more
2. People that spent a ton of time and plat on last bloods get to keep their uber augs
3. We don't have to go through this all over again next expansion when 85 + 85 + TSS (or whatever) is too powerful because the mega uberness has been shifted off the bazaar buyable portion to the raid required portion

Kheibik
12-09-2007, 05:15 AM
I'm sorry Easily groupable Tier 4 gear on a alt no less? Rot loot perhaps?

Nope. He was three boxing most of it with a bard, a cleric, and a monk and he's in DP gear.

Roatus
12-09-2007, 06:00 AM
Why not just nerf the new armor/seals and buff the raid augs to balance the "sets"? Doesn't that make everyone happy?


Hint:

Fact, top raiders are using/will keep using 80 armors and symbols even after reaching Tier4 contents in SoF. Last blood, they don't.
Fact, there are people who want to make themselves happy but don't want others to be happy. Someone's unhappiness tastes like sugar.

Rukirn
12-09-2007, 08:21 AM
Your hitting up Demiplane at 80, basically turning it into some very trival content. Which is fine! But expecting to pull down TSS/TBS gear out of Demiplane is frankly absurd. Why should my guild or any guild for that matter work through TSS atm, or TBS? When all we need to do is roll back through Demi and beat the crap out of it and plut in some LB's into 80 TS gear.
1) It's not possible to jump from Demi -> TBS or Demi -> SoF, even if they left the overpowered gear as-is. This is a maximum of 8 slots of nice armor with good AC/HP/mana and mediocre to outdated everything else. The mod2s are okay but not great and both the melee and especially the caster focuses are way outdated. Without TSS/TBS gear in the non-visible slots and *weapons* for DPS you won't be leap-frogging much content at all.

2) They are nerfing 80%+ of the player base. The real big upgrade was the massive hp upgrade on the new symbols. Exalted symbols are being made much more than the 80 armor and most people don't have access to serpent or sunshard seals, so the vast majority of people would be using 70 armor + 75/80 symbol + 70 seal (LB or even bazu). With the new changes this combination will be significantly worse.

Was it overpowered for the difficulty? Probably, yes.

Was it game-breaking? I'd say no.

Did SOE completely fuck up how to handle this? In my opinion - so far, yes.

cellic
12-09-2007, 08:25 AM
Yes we did, HOWEVA the devs REPEATEDLY declared all was well (IE not broken). The "insiders" and devs are always saying that the devs don't listen to the whines of the players in balance...

Yet we got stagnated overall in SoF (monks DPS is too good), cultural is annonced to likely be obliterated in january (sorry i do not believe for a single second they are CAPABLE of doing it right Hello DS, Reptile and tunare nerfs the result of warrior whinefests BTW!) Wizards instants were nerfed, (hello druid whine threads).

This likely would not have been a problem whatsoever had TSS raid gear not been a smoldering pile of feces. Defend the nerfing of the stats all you want, shit i agree with ya.. But this shit should not have made it out of BETA if it was sooo overpowered...I dare anyone to say with a straight face to say this was not the direct result of that thread.

This was not a direct result of any one thread.

wycca
12-09-2007, 10:35 AM
Your LB loots in DP will make the exact same overall item it made me when combined with the same items that were available to me while I was in DP.

The old comments about LB's being fine were because there was no new cultural - which has existed in the game for what, about 3 weeks?

I don't care what justifications, profanity, and childish tantrums you want to throw out there, but being able to obtain via bazaar and 4-expansion old drops the equivilant of Meldrath's Mansion RAID ARMOR is not balanced. It's not caving to a select group of people, it's realizing something is fucked up.

You farm DP - Great, you can get DP appropriate drops. You don't get a free pass to combine it in the bazaar and bypass 4 expansions and 2 tiers in a new expansion worth of gear progression.

Ajax
12-09-2007, 10:46 AM
Your LB loots in DP will make the exact same overall item it made me when combined with the same items that were available to me while I was in DP.

The old comments about LB's being fine were because there was no new cultural - which has existed in the game for what, about 3 weeks?

I don't care what justifications, profanity, and childish tantrums you want to throw out there, but being able to obtain via bazaar and 4-expansion old drops the equivilant of Meldrath's Mansion RAID ARMOR is not balanced. It's not caving to a select group of people, it's realizing something is fucked up.

You farm DP - Great, you can get DP appropriate drops. You don't get a free pass to combine it in the bazaar and bypass 4 expansions and 2 tiers in a new expansion worth of gear progression.


I couldn't agree more, please stop bitching. Seeing armor surpass what I acquired in solteris from 4 expansions ago and 200k pp later was just insulting. People who raid and spend lots of hours raiding deserve better gear than what you can aquire as a non raider. That gap should also be very wide. Taking 2 groups to go farm bazu augs and last bloods isn't considered raiding..... If you want equivelant gear take your guild or join a guild and aquire it like the rest of people who spend 25+ hours a week raiding to acquire it.

Ancaglon
12-09-2007, 12:44 PM
I couldn't agree more, please stop bitching.
Why, when it clearly worked for your viewpoint? I think I've been playing long enough to tell you to go get knotted in response.

When you were doing Demi-plane, you were doing it with hardcore raiders and raiding 5+ days a week, and the foci etc you were getting were doing what they needed to do. The guilds now in Demi-plane are mostly 3-4 days a week and far less able to spend 10 tries to get things right an evening, and those foci are practically worthless. So, since we can't get the weapons to achieve the DPS needed for later content, that's really all that we're getting out of it. With the trash and the respawn timers, most of the mid-tier guilds will have a tough time clearing tier 2 within 5 days.

The "end-game" people were complaining that the new TS gear was making stuff you'd already done (TSS, really) seem pointless. Guess what, you're now telling everyone raiding pre-TSS that their efforts are pointless in exactly the same manner (rather than prove yourself "better" by gearing up in SoF).

Fair? I don't think so. The gear went LIVE with this "imbalance", and an awful lot of people have spent time, money, and DKP because, having asked the Dev team (repeatedly) whether this was as intended, and being told (repeatedly) that it was, and are now about to be told "we didn't mean what we said" (I won't go quite so far as saying they lied, but they've clearly pandered to the end-game crowd). This will certainly hasten the "end-game" - the end of EQ.

Ajax
12-09-2007, 01:14 PM
When you were doing Demi-plane, you were doing it with hardcore raiders and raiding 5+ days a week, and the foci etc you were getting were doing what they needed to do. The guilds now in Demi-plane are mostly 3-4 days a week and far less able to spend 10 tries to get things right an evening, and those foci are practically worthless. So, since we can't get the weapons to achieve the DPS needed for later content, that's really all that we're getting out of it. With the trash and the respawn timers, most of the mid-tier guilds will have a tough time clearing tier 2 within 5 days.

The "end-game" people were complaining that the new TS gear was making stuff you'd already done (TSS, really) seem pointless. Guess what, you're now telling everyone raiding pre-TSS that their efforts are pointless in exactly the same manner (rather than prove yourself "better" by gearing up in SoF).

Fair? I don't think so. The gear went LIVE with this "imbalance", and an awful lot of people have spent time, money, and DKP because, having asked the Dev team (repeatedly) whether this was as intended, and being told (repeatedly) that it was, and are now about to be told "we didn't mean what we said" (I won't go quite so far as saying they lied, but they've clearly pandered to the end-game crowd). This will certainly hasten the "end-game" - the end of EQ.

First off how many expansions old is demi plane 4 now? Thats 10 more levels and 1k more AA later that alone should give you a huge advantage. Lets look at Breastplates a minute here to compare comparable loots.

Demiplane

Forgotten Artist's Mesh Tunic

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 69
STR: +25 DEX: +25 STA: +35 CHA: +35 WIS: +25 HP: +375 MANA: +375 ENDUR: +375
SV FIRE: +25 SV DISEASE: +30 SV COLD: +25 SV MAGIC: +25 SV POISON: +25
Shielding: +2% Avoidance: +25 Accuracy: +25 Stun Resist: +8% Attack: +35 Regeneration: +10 Mana Regeneration: +4 Haste: +45%
Required level of 70.
Focus: Wurine Preservation
WT: 2.5 Size: LARGE
Class: DRU MNK BST
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 8 (General: Raid)

Tradeskill with Demiplane drop and other augs minus the slot 7

Elegant Shadowrise Cuirass

MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: CHEST
AC: 91
STR: +6 DEX: +3 STA: +6 CHA: +4 WIS: +6 INT: +6 AGI: +7 HP: +80 MANA: +80 ENDUR: +80
SV FIRE: +11 SV DISEASE: +14 SV COLD: +11 SV POISON: +14
Recommended level of 79. Required level of 75.
WT: 2.0 Size: LARGE
Class: MNK BST
Race: IKS
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 11 (Cultural: Deity)
Slot 3, Type 12 (Cultural: Raid)

Last Blood of the Advisor

MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation type: 12
Slot: HEAD ARMS WRIST HANDS CHEST LEGS FEET
AC: 45
STR: +7 DEX: +7 STA: +7 CHA: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +210 MANA: +210 ENDUR: +210
SV FIRE: +16 SV DISEASE: +16 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Spell Shield: +2% Avoidance: +9 Stun Resist: +2% DoT Shielding: +2% Regeneration: +2 Mana Regeneration: +1 Damage Shield: +1
Required level of 70.
Focus: Avariciousness of the Ikaav
WT: 0.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

Item Information:
You must use the solvent Class XVIII Augmentation Distiller to remove this augment safely.

Sublime Chest Symbol of Terror

AUGMENTATION ATTUNEABLE
Augmentation type: 11
Slot: CHEST
STR: +16+2 DEX: +15+2 STA: +16+2 CHA: +15+2 WIS: +16+2 INT: +16+2 AGI: +15+2 HP: +330 MANA: +330 ENDUR: +330
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +17 SV POISON: +17
Combat Effects: +5 Shielding: +2% Spell Shield: +2% Avoidance: +5 Accuracy: +5 Stun Resist: +2% Strikethrough: +2% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +30 Regeneration: +5 Mana Regeneration: +4 Damage Shield: +3 Clairvoyance: 3
Recommended level of 79. Required level of 75.
WT: 0.0 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Deity: Cazic-Thule

Item Information:
You must use the solvent Class VIII Augmentation Distiller to remove this augment safely.

All 3 added together with both bps still having an aug slot open, you have roughly 136 ac 590 hp,mana,end plus better mod2s. As compared to the best best end expansion bp being the forgotten artist at 69 ac 375 hp,mana,end. Oh yeah you should be able to get a BP from Demiplane and have it CLOSELY COMPARABLE to a Solteris BP right? Because you earned that?

Heres the Solteris BP btw

Hardened Energeiac Leather Tunic
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: CHEST
Charges: Unlimited
Purity: 75
AC: 89
STR: +36 DEX: +36 STA: +36 CHA: +36 WIS: +36 INT: +36 AGI: +36 HP: +575 ENDUR: +575
SV FIRE: +37 SV DISEASE: +37 SV COLD: +37 SV MAGIC: +37 SV POISON: +37
Shielding: +4% Spell Shield: +4% Avoidance: +25 Accuracy: +25 DoT Shielding: +4% Attack: +60 Regeneration: +6 Damage Shield: +4
Required level of 75.
Effect: Whispering Wind (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 0.7) at Level 75
Recast Delay: 8 seconds, Recast Type: 16
Focus: Impenetrable Body
WT: 2.0 Size: LARGE
Class: MNK
Race: HUM IKS DRK
Slot 1, Type 8 (General: Raid)



Now while I sympathize with people having spent lots of pp to upgrade gear, I don't have much sympathy for you saying your guild is struggling in Demiplane when there have been 4 expansions since and LOTS of AA, gear, and hitpoints to help you beat and surpass demiplane. Guess what? Not everything is easy you have to work for things. They shouldn't just be handed to you because you and your guild can't beat it. If real life worked the way some people want this game to work we would all be fat, happy, and rich because our bosses would just give us everything, because well it's just to hard to work for so here just take it cause we know you REALLY deserve it since you made some half ass attempt. Maybe spending time with your guildies coming up with better strategies and working on their charcters is a better idea then hoping someone just give things to you. For myself something earned is always better than something just handed to me, but thats just me and we all know everyones not the same. As for the long post on the sony forums I didn't care to comment once about it because it made no difference to me if they changed it or not. While I personally didn't think it was fair if thats how things were to be so be it. Like always I enjoy playing the game and working hard with my guild acquiring new things and beating new events. So life for me would have just went on as normal. Only shame is people wasting lots of PP. Do I think sony handled any of it well no. But I do think they are trying to finally fix what everyone already knew to be wrong.

Floppie7th
12-09-2007, 02:01 PM
I don't have much sympathy for you saying your guild is struggling in Demiplane when there have been 4 expansions since and LOTS of AA, gear, and hitpoints to help you beat and surpass demiplane.

You know damn well that Demi-Plane of Blood is not about gear. Adding ten levels, countless AAs, and doubling the quality if your gear makes it marginally easier. The zone is about finesse. Oh yeah, and dumb fucking events.

BrueFromXev
12-09-2007, 02:02 PM
I agree that it's over powered, but why not just nerf the 75/80 gear and symbols and buff the high end raid augs to compensate?

Ajax
12-09-2007, 03:17 PM
You know damn well that Demi-Plane of Blood is not about gear. Adding ten levels, countless AAs, and doubling the quality if your gear makes it marginally easier. The zone is about finesse. Oh yeah, and dumb fucking events.

Not going to get in an argument about guilds lack of ability to achieve farther than Demiplane it's absolutely pointless considering there are at least 50+ guilds that have beaten it now. I actually enjoyed the Demiplane events, Hatchet is still up there for most fun.

Oaklen
12-09-2007, 03:30 PM
Personally I am agnostic on this issue and I can't say I did not suspect there might be some kind of "nerf" (nerf=high clss muligan for screwing things up in this case) of this pimp gear for reasons noted on this thread, but I also know more than a few good friends who have shelled out most of their hard earned EQ bank accounts for these upgrades. And if SOE really thinks it is 'game breaking-ly' important to nerf this stuff by X% then I would like to see them put their considerable assets to work attempting to refund folks that same X% of the coin they have lost to this abortion.

Now folks may rightly say this may not be practical... but I pose to you that 'practical' has yet to rear its head in any of the proposed "fixes" SOE has been floating like so many turds in the proverbial punch bowl on this issue.

Archus
12-09-2007, 03:56 PM
To me, it's the same old thing of the Ubers having the gear, using it for two years, and then wanting it nerfed. The aug hasn't changed. If it's a problem with the new cultural, fix the armor.

Asking for an item to be nerfed after you have used it for 2 years and have now moved on is pure bullshit.

But that's just my opinion.

I totally agree. Last Blood stats have been the same for 2 years, the bleeding edge guilds used them and benefitted and kept their mouths shut. Now that their LBs are banked and lower tier raiders are starting to 'close the gap', they are screaming bloody murder. If LB's are too powerful now, it is only because of the increases to the cultural armor that surrounds them. If a nerf _must_ take place, then it should be to the new cultural and symbols, not a piece of gear that has been deemed perfectly fine for 2 years.

IMO, the best option for the devs at this point is to up the AC/HP of visible Solteris armor 5-10% to keep everyone happy. This will probably necessitate re-tuning some SoF raids, but its not like that stuff is likely to be properly tuned at this time anyways.

WFSBelaar
12-09-2007, 04:10 PM
Maddoc wrote,


That pretty much sums up the entire reason why I designed the cultural armor system this way from the beginning.

The overall time investment of getting all the pieces to make a piece of cultural armor and symbol is not trivial by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it's likely faster and easier to go out with a group or raid and kill rares / complete quests / whatever to get an equivalent piece of gear.

The overall time investment of getting a raid-level augment for the cultural is no less than getting a raid-level piece of loot from the corpses of the same guys dropping the last blood, except... It requires that you have the base armor and symbol itself just to wind up with gear that's as good as the other raid drops (not counting Last Bloods, since they were high on the AC side of things).

The fact that a player can take their last blood augment and put it in a piece of level 80 cultural armor is really not as powerful as you may think, for a number of reasons.

First, the base armor and symbol have no focus effects at all, which makes them a pretty drastic downgrade from just about any group-attainable piece of gear you can find for the same slots. That instantly makes it less desirable, even if it may have a slight hp advantage.

Second, the focus effects on the last blood augments are going to be subpar to any group-attainable piece of gear. The net effect is that the level 80 cultural armor and symbol with a last blood augment in it now has a maintenance cost associated with it. That maintenance cost is the extra mana consumed by having subpar effects. That maintenance cost isn't just affecting the player wearing the armor, it's may also affect the group of that player by making larger / more frequent heals necessary or causing additional downtime.

Any benefit that you can see to allowing the last blood augments to be used in the level 80 gear is easily countered by a drawback in the armor, and for what the cultural armor system has in flexibilty, it certainly makes up for it in drawbacks.

Game

Can't understand why people are upset!

Archus
12-09-2007, 04:40 PM
Your LB loots in DP will make the exact same overall item it made me when combined with the same items that were available to me while I was in DP.

The old comments about LB's being fine were because there was no new cultural - which has existed in the game for what, about 3 weeks?

I don't care what justifications, profanity, and childish tantrums you want to throw out there, but being able to obtain via bazaar and 4-expansion old drops the equivilant of Meldrath's Mansion RAID ARMOR is not balanced. It's not caving to a select group of people, it's realizing something is fucked up.

You farm DP - Great, you can get DP appropriate drops. You don't get a free pass to combine it in the bazaar and bypass 4 expansions and 2 tiers in a new expansion worth of gear progression.

Then nerf the new cultural which is what caused the whole problem in the first place. Don't nerf a 2 year old aug.

Fastin
12-09-2007, 04:54 PM
I totally agree. Last Blood stats have been the same for 2 years, the bleeding edge guilds used them and benefitted and kept their mouths shut. Now that their LBs are banked and lower tier raiders are starting to 'close the gap', they are screaming bloody murder. If LB's are too powerful now, it is only because of the increases to the cultural armor that surrounds them. If a nerf _must_ take place, then it should be to the new cultural and symbols, not a piece of gear that has been deemed perfectly fine for 2 years.

IMO, the best option for the devs at this point is to up the AC/HP of visible Solteris armor 5-10% to keep everyone happy. This will probably necessitate re-tuning some SoF raids, but its not like that stuff is likely to be properly tuned at this time anyways.

Again the ubers want it nerfed after they used it arguement. Fact is you STILL get the exact same overall stats that the ubers got. What you CANT do is plug your lb into 80 ts and get SoF/TBS stats.

Fastin
12-09-2007, 05:02 PM
Then nerf the new cultural which is what caused the whole problem in the first place. Don't nerf a 2 year old aug.

Don't get me wrong they screwed up so badly on this. This garbage shouldn't have made it out of beta...but it has and now they have to fix it. Honestly I'm not sure what the proper way to fix it should be...the current method seems funky but this is soe.

wycca
12-09-2007, 05:57 PM
Well that didn't work.

Ancaglon
12-09-2007, 06:41 PM
Ajax: Very convenient of you to ignore the effect of POWER SOURCES, and the Purity augs, hmm? You lose.

Ajax
12-09-2007, 07:15 PM
Ajax: Very convenient of you to ignore the effect of POWER SOURCES, and the Purity augs, hmm? You lose.

Purity aug is optional not everyone has it since it cost 1k orum, and powersource varies on the user which will vary on results, wherein again the powersource I use varies on the situation and I use 4 different ones. Regardless 375 HP bp was what was inteded for that expansion not rewarding someone with a 575 HP bp. If you'd like to keep that line of thinking along I should be owed roughly a 800 Hp bp from TSS. Some people will use a powersource with small HP return for more returns elsewhere.

Floppie7th
12-09-2007, 09:07 PM
Not going to get in an argument about guilds lack of ability to achieve farther than Demiplane it's absolutely pointless considering there are at least 50+ guilds that have beaten it now. I actually enjoyed the Demiplane events, Hatchet is still up there for most fun.

It's not about "lack of ability to achieve"; it's about "gear means shit on these events, guilds have to work out strats and practice them". Some of the DPoB events are fun. I love Hatchet; Tris and Roley are both fun. Devlin would be fun without bugged vials.

On the other hand, however, Sisters is stupid. Performer could have been cool (ring events with a twist ftw)...but ended up just being a mess. Events in that zone are pretty hit or miss as far as "fun" goes.

Maereax
12-09-2007, 09:40 PM
It's not about "lack of ability to achieve"; it's about "gear means shit on these events, guilds have to work out strats and practice them". Some of the DPoB events are fun. I love Hatchet; Tris and Roley are both fun. Devlin would be fun without bugged vials.

On the other hand, however, Sisters is stupid. Performer could have been cool (ring events with a twist ftw)...but ended up just being a mess. Events in that zone are pretty hit or miss as far as "fun" goes.

Don't lie, roley is a snooze fest unless you're in a crypt group, and then it's not much better

Floppie7th
12-09-2007, 09:45 PM
Maybe I still find it fun because we've only been doing it for a few months. That might change before too long ;)

Aenoan
12-09-2007, 11:22 PM
Well, I never got LB's myself so I can't say one way or another, I think a possible solution however might be in the way of removing chronals and the low lvl augs from the game and putting basically putting bazu stats on Last Bloods? That or simply nerfing the sublime and base stats of the armor and maybe upping the lvl requirement of SoF armor.

Kaliaila
12-10-2007, 06:47 AM
All you butt kissers really need to take your heads back out of the sand and remember that the dev's don't give a shit about what is good for the game. This change as many other people have said in this thread is utter Bullshit. There is no legitimate reason for the change. Every single Dev knew BEFORE Beta even started what the LBs were at as far as stats/ac/hp/mana/end/resists, they specifically designed the Armor and Symbols with the LBs and their effects on them in mind. There ONLY reason they are doing this change is because of the small group of whiners. There is NO logical reason, none at all, for this change to occur.

ALL, as in every single one, of the claims made in this thread and every other one relating to how "overpowering" the new armor and symbols are with a LB is 100% unfounded and impossible to actually support.

Boots, Legs, Chest, Arms, Bracers x2, Gloves, and Helm. That is 8 pieces. I suppose those are the only slots anyone would need to ever upgrade between Demi and SoF. How many people who are currently raiding Demi-Deathknell have 8 last blood augs? Everyone must have apparently since leaving the LBs as they are means that no one upgrades till SoF. How many guilds are going to do raids that drop LBs till everyone in the guild, say bare minimum of 54, has 8 LBs? That is 432 LBs at the least, plus however many more you might need to get if people leave the guild for another one. So 432+ raid kills of mobs that drop LBs before the guild can start farming something new. And of course everyone is going to want to spend either the time or the insane amounts of Plat to get the armors, symbols, and seals made. What the guild will just supply the stuff? Oh yes, everyone in the guild is just going to donate all of those pieces to the guild bank. Going to spend time farming parts for all those combines. Yes that is sure to happen.

Honestly get real, there is no argument that can in anyway support the lies being given for why they are changing the Seals. If they really thought what they are suddenly saying now, then they actually would have done what they have been saying they since before SoF even came out; they would have designed the new Cultural Armor and Symbols with Last Bloods taken fully into account.

Itaru
12-10-2007, 06:56 AM
Ajax: Very convenient of you to ignore the effect of POWER SOURCES, and the Purity augs, hmm? You lose.

LB + elegant + sublime gloves: 95 AC, 600HP, +1 heroic stats

Solteris gloves + pure elemental PS + 20 purity aug: 55 AC, 595HP, fewer mod2's. More resists, but those are way beyond capped anyway.

I had planned on pulling a LB out of retirement and upgrading my Solteris gloves with it. That's just broken.

You lose.

Itaru
12-10-2007, 07:00 AM
ALL, as in every single one, of the claims made in this thread and every other one relating to how "overpowering" the new armor and symbols are with a LB is 100% unfounded and impossible to actually support.

See my post above.

quorthon
12-10-2007, 07:07 AM
The saddest thing about this whole affair is the fact SOE have fucked this up, yet here we have both camps (groupers vs raiders) battling each other.

FACT - raiding guilds are not as a collective whole "up in arms" over new cultural/symbols.

Yes, the usual attentionwhores on SOE forums are spouting their usual elitist/e-peen crap (from both sides) , but I think you'll find most (/cringe) "high-end" guilds, don't give a flying rats arse about the whole affair, if you want to pare it down, it makes it easier for new applicants/members to achive a workable level of gear faster.

Personally, my necro wears a Cultural robe and sunshard aug, this gives me a focus of my choice which was previously only really available on 1 item (det spell haste - Solt class legs) combined with stats over and above even solteris robe.

-even if they nerf 100hp of the robe, i'll shrug it off and continue to use it, but thats because I value the focus rather than the raw stats-

The whole issue is (another) PR disaster for SOE, nerfs in any way are bad, but nerfing in this way is a disgrace.

It's hitting the vast populace of EQ (the casual grouper/raider) hard, weeks after they got quite arguably their finest power boost in years.

But please, for the love of god, don't think it's the moaning of the "raiding" population that "demanded" this. Do you really think SOE care 2 hoots what our opinion is, any more than yours?

If you search hard enough , you'll see even some dev's thought this stuff was overpowered in beta, but the powers that be put it in despite their opinions.

The conspiracy theorist in me, might suggest it was as a honey-trap to entice people to buy the Expansion, as this was it's "killer-app" then nerfing it 2 months later once they had the $$$.

kuric
12-10-2007, 08:52 AM
The conspiracy theorist in me, might suggest it was as a honey-trap to entice people to buy the Expansion, as this was it's "killer-app" then nerfing it 2 months later once they had the $$$.

That sounds about right...SOE had to get their money some how.

I'm torn in this debate. Because I like to see the little guys get ahead in the game. The problem is...when they go from farming demiplanes to breaking into AG/FC within 3 weeks of the expansion, skipping over DK, doing fights that they had no chance on before and wouldn't have any chance on even with lvl 80...is questionable.

In a guild that has been farming those zones for 4-5 months now and is trying to start on base SoF raids, while breaking into Solteris at the same time...It's difficult to see the time we spent there as productive when others have passed the level we could obtained on that content.

Why does a nerf always have to hurt some class (all classes in this case.)

Fix the higher level gear and leave the LB augs alone. That way, the higher end raiders get better gear, while the lower end raiders don't lose so much.

If they really do want to limit this to a specific set of armour...change the aug slot available on it. Make the lvl 70 armour only usable with slot 12? (LB slot?) then the serpentine in slot 13, etc, and up. I believe they have already used those aug slot numbers though. That would limit the cultural slots that would allow those augs to be placed in.

Kuric.

rigeld
12-10-2007, 08:58 AM
People (esp. tanks) were bitching that the LBs were overpowered when the content was current... and SoE said "Yeah yeah... tough."
Now they decide to swing the hammer... thats retarded.

Ughbash
12-10-2007, 09:26 AM
There is oen and only one reasno that the Last blodo si teh part beign nerfed as comapred to the Sublime or Elegant armor. Facite Essence.

If they nerfed the armor or aug rather then the last blood, none of the High End raiders would consider the Last blood replacement. This way high end raiders get choices, and those of us who were not high end, but valued AC get fucked.

Have had 6 last blood for quite a while (everywhere but legs and chest). Passed on TSS armor even thoguh ti was signifigantly more hp and resists and mod'2s yes my mod 2's suck because of this but I Wanted the AC for singel group tanking.

Now I don't even get vaseline.

Also for those comapring it to Sublime thats not what the devs complained about. Sublime augs are RARE. Devs were complainign about the 70 armor the 75 auf (exalted) and the last blood. Simple solution would have been to nerf exalted and or sublime. But no the first paragraph explains why they don't do that. That would mean noone would bother with the Newest version of LAst bood because the combo of Elegant and Sublime and Faycite would be nowhere near as good as teh Raid armor from SoF.

For those who bitch about raid gear being obsoleted by group gear. First off Last blood is not groupable by groupers. Secondly orante armor obsoleted Shivercrap (not that it wasn't obsolete already).

A fairer solution would have been to nerf the Sublime and exalted, but that would have made the tradeskill armor useless.

sardonis
12-10-2007, 10:20 AM
Probably would take too much work to do, but they could resolve the issue in a bit better manner by changing the slots of some of the items.

Leave the previously existing items as they were, but change the newer stuff

Make exalted and sublime augments slot 15, so they can't go in older armor
Make the new seals slot 16, so they can't go in older armor

Give the new armor slots 7, 15 & 16 so you can't put last blood in them.

If you want to use Last Blood, use older armor and symbols.

If you want to use the newer symbols, use newer armor and seals.

The problem seems to stem from mixing the old and new, not with the stats you can get from the new stuff and raid level seals.

quorthon
12-10-2007, 10:57 AM
Leave the previously existing items as they were, but change the newer stuff

I may be wrong, and I hold my hands up if I am, as I gave up on the SOE thread about 6 pages.

But isn't this exactly what they're reported to be doing?

ppl who were using old "GM" armor and LB's will notice little or no difference, it's just the (in SOE's opinion) ott boost the new symbols gave that is being reeled in?

sardonis
12-10-2007, 11:11 AM
Stolen from the 18 pages of posts (and that just the tradeskill forum) on the station forums

The example is just an assumption of numbers, but it shows what the intent is. To take the old armor set and shuffle the stats around so that Last Blood doesn't impact the newer armor and symbols as much.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Prior to SoF the best cultural would of been Elaborate + Eminent + Last Blood. So as an example, I'll use a plate bracer as suggested earlier.

Elaborate - 32ac/30hp
Eminent - 0ac/85hp
Last Blood - 45ac/210hp
Total - 77ac/325hp base (Type 7 aug still available)

After SoF, without gaining a new seal and just buying the new cultural, you get:

Elegant - 58ac/65hp
Sublime - 0ac/315hp
Last Blood - 45ac/210hp
Total - 103ac/590hp

Now for the example change. Lets suppose they decided that halving the last blood was the way to go. So rounding a bit, they take off 20ac and 105hp. Then distribute it into the armor and symbol:

Elaborate - 52ac/80hp (+20ac/+50hp)
Eminent - 0ac/140hp (+0ac/+55hp)
Last Blood - 25ac/105hp
Total still - 77ac/325hp

However, the new cultural will result in:

Elegant - 58ac/65hp
Sublime - 0ac/315hp
Last Blood - 25ac/105hp
Total - 83ac/485hp

Archus
12-10-2007, 01:57 PM
I'm torn in this debate. Because I like to see the little guys get ahead in the game. The problem is...when they go from farming demiplanes to breaking into AG/FC within 3 weeks of the expansion, skipping over DK, doing fights that they had no chance on before and wouldn't have any chance on even with lvl 80...is questionable.

Those guilds are not beating Vergalid all of a sudden because they have Elegant+Sublime+LBs in all their slots x54 raiders. They are doing that because of the level rise to 80. As you say, it has only been 3 weeks. No guild has enough of that stuff to make a significant difference in that time. Besides, the armor doesn't improve dps to any significant degree, and that is what is allowing some guilds to skip stuff. Also, those guilds that are doing the skipping are missing out on content. If they choose to skip it, its their loss. Also, some guilds have been skipping PoR / DK for some time now - even before SoF was released. My own guild has been farming MM for months and had flagged up for DK without actually entering prior to SoF. This weekend we entered DK for the first time and cleared it the first day. Not because some of us have some of the 'overpowered gear', but because average raid level was 79.8 or so. We will do DK for at least a couple months since the events (at least the first 2) are quite fun. We could have skipped it and moved on with TSS progression, but why? TSS will still be there in 2008.

Anyways, the point is, lets not exaggerate the power of Elegant/Sublime/LB. It doesn't increase dps. It only helps toon survivability, and only a little bit at that. You could outfit my entire guild in all 8 spots with Elegant/Sublime/LBs tonight, and we would STILL not be capable of entering Solteris tomorrow (well not capable of winning there). (Thats assuming we would even want to skip content. We quite enjoy defeating content together as a guild, even if we are overpowered for it.) It might make TSS go a bit faster, but thats about it. Leaving Last Bloods alone IS NOT GOING TO BREAK THE GAME. All its going to do is alienate and irritate some of the player base at a time when EQ needs all the players it can get. (And no thats not some veiled threat of quitting. I'll still play as long as my friends do no matter how bad they nerf me.)

Archus
12-10-2007, 03:02 PM
LB + elegant + sublime gloves: 95 AC, 600HP, +1 heroic stats

Solteris gloves + pure elemental PS + 20 purity aug: 55 AC, 595HP, fewer mod2's. More resists, but those are way beyond capped anyway.

I had planned on pulling a LB out of retirement and upgrading my Solteris gloves with it. That's just broken.

You lose.

As a leather class, don't be surprised if you STILL break your LB out of retirement after the nerf and upgrade Solteris gloves with it. Part of the issue for monks is that not only did the new cultural upgrade the stats, but SoF also increased the AC of leather armor to narrow the Leather-Chain-Plate gap. Wycca outlines the situation here: http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17670

So although I would expect Eleg/Sub/LB AC for plates to be lower than Solteris, I would expect leather AC to be higher than Solteris - though now there will be a HP hit for all that AC gain to weigh. I could be wrong, but I am basing my guess on the fact that the 'new cultural' is 'new gear', which will follow the 'new' (post-SoF) vision for AC distribution rather than the 'old vision' (pre-SoF) vision for AC distribution.

EDIT: Realized I don't know much about PS's, so that may keep the Solt gloves the clear choice post-nerf.

Fulic
12-10-2007, 03:29 PM
The new cultural armor will promote even more hackers (to farm LB's), Plat farmers/sellers, and PL'ing houses. In a couple of weeks or maybe alittle longer there will be TSS/TBS geared players with Anguish level weapons running around on every server and only 30 days played, and no ideal where they are, how to get there, muchless how to play the toon.

Fulic
Keepers of the Glade
Bertox

netura
12-10-2007, 06:26 PM
The new cultural armor will promote even more hackers (to farm LB's), Plat farmers/sellers, and PL'ing houses. In a couple of weeks or maybe alittle longer there will be TSS/TBS geared players with Anguish level weapons running around on every server and only 30 days played, and no ideal where they are, how to get there, muchless how to play the toon.
Lets try not to over exaggerate so much

Pliko
12-10-2007, 08:09 PM
Way too many people are whining and bitching because they got a free gift of uber gear, cutting out most of the required raiding, and now its being taken away.

Guess what??? Im in a guild working on solteris, and I have a bazu stone in the bank. Its majorly messed up that this bazua + elegant + sublime > Solteris gear... in all but focii...

If you can't wrap your minds around that point, and the fact that for any guild short of tier 3 or 4 of SoF, they might as well farm last bloods.... then its not worth the time arguing

Kaliaila
12-10-2007, 10:08 PM
Way too many people are whining and bitching because they got a free gift of uber gear, cutting out most of the required raiding, and now its being taken away.

Guess what??? Im in a guild working on solteris, and I have a bazu stone in the bank. Its majorly messed up that this bazua + elegant + sublime > Solteris gear... in all but focii...

If you can't wrap your minds around that point, and the fact that for any guild short of tier 3 or 4 of SoF, they might as well farm last bloods.... then its not worth the time arguing

Guess what the whole POINT of SOF was to make that other stuff NOT be required. So you need to get over yourself and move on. And guess what Elegant +Sublime + Bazu << Solteris gear, just like Elegant + Sublime + LB is also < Solteris gear.

polkgaiimahn
12-10-2007, 10:38 PM
http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/1479/2257/211110.png
I destroyed the purity aug, and sold the Solteris boots back.

Lyndar
12-10-2007, 11:26 PM
Doesn't the sunshard seal require some kind of raid drop from SoF?

polkgaiimahn
12-10-2007, 11:42 PM
TBS; the SoF one is 50 hp greater, and the Last Blood is only 90 hp fewer.

Lyndar
12-10-2007, 11:44 PM
So last blood is 140 hps less than SoF, not bad.

Rahkim
12-11-2007, 02:33 AM
I think everyone agrees that most raiding guilds are in demi. The bigger / better / older guilds have long since left, but thats where the *majority* of raiders are at atm. We're busy teaching people how to handle scripted events that are new to them, and struggling with it (and the #s required). Its not like all the demi mobs are shyra where u stand in a corner and kill it, its does still require some effort and skill... you cant just zerg the shit with your extra hp and dps from levels.

Now, there's single groupable gear dropping thats VERY close to demi gear we're working hard to get (save for mod2's), and thats perfectly fine according to the uber crowd. The casuals are nipping at the heels of the mid tier and the ubers said it was a great idea. I recall posts saying that it would "help the mid tier guilds because they'd be able to suppliment their own gear and their apps would be better geared coming in."

Now when the mid tier guys start catching up to the ubers, minus mod2's, on visible armor only, its a fucking tragedy...... welcome to our life? Sucks for someone to walk out of the bazaar and have gear very near to your own huh? But hey, you guys can suppliment your gear and your apps will be coming in the door better geared... right? Right?...

Oh wait, when it happens to YOU its game breaking and totally unfair and the worst thing to ever happen ever omgolly~ Those of us in the middle of progression are gonna be back to feeling the pinch, and once again karma gets beat down with the nerf stick thanks to the vocal minority.

I hated the cultural too, but i hate the reason its getting nerfed even more.

Maereax
12-11-2007, 09:25 AM
I think everyone agrees that most raiding guilds are in demi. The bigger / better / older guilds have long since left, but thats where the *majority* of raiders are at atm. We're busy teaching people how to handle scripted events that are new to them, and struggling with it (and the #s required). Its not like all the demi mobs are shyra where u stand in a corner and kill it, its does still require some effort and skill... you cant just zerg the shit with your extra hp and dps from levels.

Now, there's single groupable gear dropping thats VERY close to demi gear we're working hard to get (save for mod2's), and thats perfectly fine according to the uber crowd. The casuals are nipping at the heels of the mid tier and the ubers said it was a great idea. I recall posts saying that it would "help the mid tier guilds because they'd be able to suppliment their own gear and their apps would be better geared coming in."

Now when the mid tier guys start catching up to the ubers, minus mod2's, on visible armor only, its a fucking tragedy...... welcome to our life? Sucks for someone to walk out of the bazaar and have gear very near to your own huh? But hey, you guys can suppliment your gear and your apps will be coming in the door better geared... right? Right?...

Oh wait, when it happens to YOU its game breaking and totally unfair and the worst thing to ever happen ever omgolly~ Those of us in the middle of progression are gonna be back to feeling the pinch, and once again karma gets beat down with the nerf stick thanks to the vocal minority.

I hated the cultural too, but i hate the reason its getting nerfed even more.



Amen

Ughbash
12-11-2007, 10:55 AM
So last blood is 140 hps less than SoF, not bad.

140 hp, mod 2's, lower focuses.

IMHO no need for the nerfbat.

Rten
12-11-2007, 12:31 PM
I am an upper end raider, we are about as far along in raiding as anyone else in the game. That being said, I do not care in the SLIGHTEST if some guild is now going to skip from trying to do Deathknell and Demi and jumps straight to AG/FC or hell even goes to Solteris, more power to them! My e-peen does not wilt that some non-raider may be ahead of me in some ranking for HPs or AC. I do not believe it is game breaking for these events to be happening. I do believe that it has RAPILY acted to make an alternate path to a higher common avgerage set of gear for non-idiot (me) raiders.

So what does it mean when the average toon out there *might* have 8 pieces of gear that give them a big boost in AC/HPS... umm nothing that I can think of really. While the AC/HPs will jump, so many raid events really require co-ordination and DPS, that I can not see this as a bad thing. On top of that, I personally almost *Never* join pickup groups. I think every major raiding monk out there has been in a situation where *pickup_tank_01* basically announces that he has 1k less ac, and 3k less hps than you do. If anyone has a possible complaint it *might* be casters that can not get the same bang for the buck for the armor as compared to a straight melee can... but I personally think that argument is pretty weak.

Net result: I wear 3 pieces of elegant gear, I agree it is a big jump, neither of my 2 alt accounts have any elegant gear. And I will be seriously pissed if there is a significant change... not because it nerfs me, but because I will have wasted so much time/pp to get the equipment. Before the expansion, I floated from say 30th to 10th in magelo monk rankings, and now days I am probably top 20ish... so my day to day change on a nerf will be damn small. All of the content I could handle now, I will be just fine handling even with a nerf, so my vote is to learn from your mistake and actually think through your changes SOE, and leave the shit alone.

On a side note, while this issue is real, if you look at my twinks, they are *Heavily* using the new atuneable gear... that stuff seems like it will impact FAR more toons than this issue... and will add LOTS more hps/ac/mana/focuses than any tradeskill based equip.

Just my rant/2cents.

Rten
Club Fu

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 01:24 PM
Guess what the whole POINT of SOF was to make that other stuff NOT be required. So you need to get over yourself and move on. And guess what Elegant +Sublime + Bazu << Solteris gear, just like Elegant + Sublime + LB is also < Solteris gear.

WRONG. For example, a Solteris geared Monk with the Solteris Legs using a Growth power source for maximum HPs but a reduction in AC due to the power source will have a set of legs with 28 AC / 752 Hps. Power Sources deplete and new ones must be purchased. In comparison, I saw a Monk in a guild that has only recently beaten Solthgar that had a set of Cultural Legs with a LB aug that came in at 113 AC / 730 HPs. The only advantage that the Solteris legs have is Fero 7 but Fero 7 can be found in TSS raids that are a lot easier than beating the events in Solteris to gain access to the legs off the NPC merchants.

You can take a look at any of the other visible slots in Solteris versus the Cultural + LB seals and see the same thing. If TSS and TBS were content several years old then it would not matter. But we are talking about TSS that is only around 15 months old and TBS that is less than a year old and having a means to surpass the visible slots that these two expansions top raid events offer by going out and buying these upgrades hurt the game.

Ughbash
12-11-2007, 01:39 PM
WRONG. For example, a Solteris geared Monk with the Solteris Legs using a Growth power source for maximum HPs but a reduction in AC due to the power source will have a set of legs with 28 AC / 752 Hps.

Is that with or without a purity aug?

Btw, anyone have a legit magelo of a monk wiht Full Elegant and Full sublime?

Perhaps tunare just has strange drop rates, but I think you are overestimating the availibility of both. I am sure a GUILD coudl gather enough Exquisites to do it, but its very hard for an individual to do such. I know, I am trying :)

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 01:53 PM
Is that with or without a purity aug?



Did not see a purity aug. The Magelo I saw for the Solteris Monk had the 90/90 soldier's stone while the magelo for the LB cultural monk had the 120/120/120 rare FC aug. Does not really matter though. To get that level of HPs on the Solteris legs you have to use the Growth Power Source that will make you take a serious hit in AC on the item. The Cultural + LB is still preferred over the Solteris Legs when you factor in the bigger AC and comparable HPs. Yes, Solteris legs properly powered up will have slightly more HPs but losing AC when AC matters now would not be a wise choice. 113 AC with a few less Hps compared to 28 AC is not enough to justify using the Solteris, besides the fact that you must worry about keeping a charged power source in place.

caaneq
12-11-2007, 02:09 PM
Since Thunder has decided to use my magelo as an "example" of the difference in gear...here's what i would've pin pointed though.


Elegant Sagacious Armband (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE ATTUNEABLE
Slot: WRIST
AC: 85
Effect: Improved Dodge III (Worn)
STR: +26 DEX: +23 STA: +26 CHA: +24 Wis: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +24 HP: +710 MANA: +590 Endurance: +590 SV FIRE: +38 SV DISEASE: +38 SV COLD: +37 SV MAGIC: +37 SV POISON: +37
Attack: +35
Regeneration: +4
Damage Shield: 1
Shielding: +2% Spell Shield: +1% Avoidance: +2 Accuracy: +9 Stun Resist: +2%
DoT Shielding: +3%
Recommended level of 79
Required level of 75
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: DRU MNK
Race: HUM
slot 1, type 7: Lava-Seared Drakkin Heart
slot 2, type 11: Sublime Wrist Symbol of the Skeptic
slot 3, type 12: Last Blood of the Cutpurse

vs.

Osh`vir`s Whisperwind Wristguard (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: WRIST
AC: 34
STR: +20 DEX: +30 STA: +35 CHA: +30 AGI: +25 HP: +540 MANA: +90 Endurance: +540 SV FIRE: +30 SV DISEASE: +35 SV COLD: +25 SV POISON: +35
Attack: +35
Regeneration: +11
Mana Regeneration: +5
Damage Shield: 3
Combat Effects: +7 Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +2% Avoidance: +10 Accuracy: +5
DoT Shielding: +3%
Required level of 75
WT: 0.3 Size: MEDIUM
Class: MNK
Race: ALL
slot 1, type 8: Gem of Unnatural Regrowth

knock 30 hp off to even the augs your looking at 680 hp on the cultural wrist vs. 540 on the TSS once. We recently dropped sothgar and am a little disapointed that the TSS mold was so little compared to the cultural one.


While I agree that the stuff is overpowered one thing to take into account is the hard work people put into buying/farming the stuff after being told "as intended" on the forums. I personally spent far far too long in Steam factory farming spinnerette fluids to get that stuff done it wasnt very easy to accomplish. What should be done, is nerfing the new armor set and the augs instead of the Last bloods that have been out for over 2 years. I've had my bracer for about a year now and you're going to nerf my seal?

Lastly what should have been done. Make 75 components for symbols drop in lvl 75 raid instances such as TSS and TBS. Make lvl 80 one symbol and armor slot components drop in SoF content. That way you couldn't make such a huge jump in power all at once. But i'm just a little peon who plays the game, what do i know?


http://eq.magelo.com/profile/1298093

Archus
12-11-2007, 02:36 PM
But we are talking about TSS that is only around 15 months old and TBS that is less than a year old and having a means to surpass the visible slots that these two expansions top raid events offer by going out and buying these upgrades hurt the game.

Still waiting for someone to tell me how this 'hurts the game' - OTHER THAN hurting the feelings of people who have already raided Solteris pre-SoF. I have said this before and I will say it again. You could give an ENTIRE DP-level guild Elegant/Sublime/LB in every slot and that would still not enable them to skip TSS. An entire TSS-level guild outfitted like that would finish up TSS much faster, and be able to move on to Solteris sooner, but guess what? Solteris was next in progression anyways. Leaving things un-nerfed will absolutely NOT break this game.

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 02:44 PM
I did not include your name Caan, but yes, your Magelo did catch my eye when I was looking at the server rankings the other night.

SOE has dropped the ball in a huge way over this. It will be a PR nightmare but for the health of the game these items need to be adjusted. FH is the only guild on Stromm in Solteris and we have only beaten the first two events. I have close friends that are already saying they are skipping Solteris and using LBs + 80 Armor + 80 Symbols because it makes more sense. Of course they were saying this before the announcement last Friday of the changes that are going to be made.

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 02:50 PM
Still waiting for someone to tell me how this 'hurts the game' - OTHER THAN hurting the feelings of people who have already raided Solteris pre-SoF. I have said this before and I will say it again. You could give an ENTIRE DP-level guild Elegant/Sublime/LB in every slot and that would still not enable them to skip TSS. An entire TSS-level guild outfitted like that would finish up TSS much faster, and be able to move on to Solteris sooner, but guess what? Solteris was next in progression anyways. Leaving things un-nerfed will absolutely NOT break this game.

Here is how it hurts the game. It increases the ROT rate of TSS and Solteris loot drops. What does that mean? It means when you kill a TSS AG or FC raid mob you have four items drops; 2 molds and 2 items. By giving players a means of not wishing to upgrade to that expansion's visible armor slots, you have cut the value of a TSS or a Solteris mob's loot by 50%. I like raiding stuff that drops gear that everyone wants. I like seeing kills where the loot all goes to guild members to increase their power so we can tackle tougher content. I despise situations where a Mob will drop 2 items and 2 molds and both molds rot.

Ughbash
12-11-2007, 04:11 PM
Thunderfoot,

A person who completely skipped Demi is probalby not the best person to be arguing this way. I am assuming you joined FH after then were done with Demi since you have no Demi gear but still have some anguish augs and gear.

Now in my case I looked at the TSS gear and decided with the exception of the BP I would rather have the LB gear. This was BEFORE the new armors and augmetns came out. My plans were to use TSS to gear up the non visible slots. I thought I would probably pick up legs (to replace anguish) in Solteris.

Now if AC is your main problem, well remove your growth power supply, in my opinion the HP it gives is not worth the AC loss. Last blood with the new armors does not suddenly become the ultimate armor, it does breathe some new life into it. If you think ti is too much, then as I have suggested the correct thing to nerf is the exalted and sublime augments.

Don't bitch about AC when you use a growth Source. I had better AC then most TSS and Solteris raiders before the new expansion came out. I sacraficed my Mod2's and HP to do it.

Don't bitch about Heroic Stats since Last blood doesn't have them either and they are only on the Augs becuase they are for the NEW expansion (Not saying you did but others have).

And please don't trivialize how hard it is to get Exquisite Marrow, at least on my server even if I had 10 mil plat I could not walk into bazaar and get it.

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 05:18 PM
Thunderfoot,

A person who completely skipped Demi is probalby not the best person to be arguing this way. I am assuming you joined FH after then were done with Demi since you have no Demi gear but still have some anguish augs and gear.

Now in my case I looked at the TSS gear and decided with the exception of the BP I would rather have the LB gear. This was BEFORE the new armors and augmetns came out. My plans were to use TSS to gear up the non visible slots. I thought I would probably pick up legs (to replace anguish) in Solteris.

Now if AC is your main problem, well remove your growth power supply, in my opinion the HP it gives is not worth the AC loss. Last blood with the new armors does not suddenly become the ultimate armor, it does breathe some new life into it. If you think ti is too much, then as I have suggested the correct thing to nerf is the exalted and sublime augments.

Don't bitch about AC when you use a growth Source. I had better AC then most TSS and Solteris raiders before the new expansion came out. I sacraficed my Mod2's and HP to do it.

Don't bitch about Heroic Stats since Last blood doesn't have them either and they are only on the Augs becuase they are for the NEW expansion (Not saying you did but others have).

And please don't trivialize how hard it is to get Exquisite Marrow, at least on my server even if I had 10 mil plat I could not walk into bazaar and get it.

I will take your points one at a time. The first is did I skip Demiplane? Answer is no, I did not. My former guild beat the Queen one week after TSS went live. We had her to 3% or 2% the previous week when level 70 was still max. We killed ZIT for the first time on November 5th, 2006. We successfully banished two of the Sisters for the first time on December 10th, 2006. We scored our first Hatchet defeat on February 11th, 2007. We got stuck on Redfang. I left and Apped to FH on April 21st, 2007. During my time in my former guild we had a total of 27 LB to drop. I was a 100% raid attender so if I had wanted one I could have gotten one but I did not have a crystal ball that told me ahead of time that with an expansion 1 year later I could take this LB and buy my way to Solteris level gear. But that is beside the point. I left that guild because I was tired of 8 hour raiding on Sundays where our three day a week raid schedule had every raid ending at Midnight est and every one of them on nights where I had to be up early the next day. That explain that enough for you? When I joined FH I saw Redfang and every tier 2 mob in Demiplane killed. I saw Mayong killed once. So in the grand scheme of things, I missed out on seeing the flagging events for Deathknell except for Daosheen since my previous guild defeated him and I missed out on seeing Vergalid defeated to gain access to Ashengate. Every other bit of content I have raided and seen defeated.

Now to some of your other points. The first being the Growth Power Source. Take out the Growth Power Source and you end up with gear that is less HPs AND less AC than (LB Seal + 80 Armor + 80 Symbol).

As for the items needed to make these, group in the SOF content to make the new AAs and you will see these drop. One thing SOF did have was new levels and new AAs. People saying they are having to grind and bleed and toil to get the items needed to make these bring a smile to my face because every one of them are seeing EXP and AA EXP bars move up the whole time they are doing it. Of course some are not having to grind. They just buy their stuff in the Bazaar.

Archus
12-11-2007, 05:35 PM
Here is how it hurts the game. It increases the ROT rate of TSS and Solteris loot drops. What does that mean? It means when you kill a TSS AG or FC raid mob you have four items drops; 2 molds and 2 items. By giving players a means of not wishing to upgrade to that expansion's visible armor slots, you have cut the value of a TSS or a Solteris mob's loot by 50%. I like raiding stuff that drops gear that everyone wants. I like seeing kills where the loot all goes to guild members to increase their power so we can tackle tougher content. I despise situations where a Mob will drop 2 items and 2 molds and both molds rot.

Sorry. Rot loot IN NO WAY hurts the game. Again it hurts YOUR feelings - as you say, you "despise situations where a Mob will drop 2 items and 2 molds and both molds rot." If you farm any zone for any reasonable length of time, that is going to begin happening. Heck we were seeing some DP drops very near rot after 2 or 3 clears (this was 5 or 6 months ago). Anguish was the same way after 5 or 6 clears iirc. Any guild that never has any loot rot either isn't farming it enough or is interested more in progression than gearing up all their members.

Sslithx
12-11-2007, 06:17 PM
Ajax-- I cant believe you just tried to pull the wool over peoples eyes to help keep folks away from knowing the truth. If a purity aug is optional because its 1k orux which can be bazaar bought then a Sublime symbol for 500k which can also be bazaar bought , for a shit load more than 1000 orux is also optional and changes your stats by 320hp. If you are wanting a nerf for fairness lets at least have fair comparisons in the debate.

On the eq boards i compared 2 equally auged pieces of gear. 1 Elegant sublime last blood and 1 solteris with purity aug and average type 8 raid drop aug. The Cultural augged out had 17 more ac with 47 less hps and of course the solteris had cleave 7 vs cultural block 3 which is a joke. Now those in solteris have another option of going with a sunshard aug that would put the hit points closer to 150 more hit points better with the uber focus and mods 2s and all that without a nerf.That being said, those getting tss serpent augs are also going to be getting a nerf to make them more in line with tss mold drops. I dont see how that is possible if solteris augged out is in the 800s hp wise. Lets remember Solteris is now yesterdays news to. Its no longer the cutting edge of raiding as its last years expansion.

Wycca-- Why would none of the high up monks or devs in beta talk to me about the cultural gear when i sent tells, pms, or emails about it being high in hit points? Only response i got was "sorry , testing new content." Look i love the work you guys do for us. But it sure looked more like the work in beta wasnt lookin at cultural stats when it should have been a big part of what was being done. Remember people arent walking into the bazaar buying 600 hps gear. They did raid for a part of it in old content, and then they matched with brand new armor in the newest expansion and it only almost catches up to last years expansion raid gear in a couple categories that have 0 chance in effecting future raiding. No one is beating Solteris 1 due to cultural armor. You dont do certain dps in a certain amount of time ,all the hit points in the world do jack poopy.

Everyone-- We all spose to be buds and have the right to have differing opinions. I hate that after playing 8 years i have personally canceled my 6 accounts due to this nerf, and mostly due to seeing people attack each other over differing opinions. THE FACT IS everyone of us sitting our fat asses in these chairs at night to play this game are pushing buttons. NONE of us is doing more WORK than the other unless we are typing 80 words a minute vs 50. 1 monk raiding high end content isnt doing a damn thing more than any other monk raiding other content if we are pulling and doing dps. When raiders say to raiders "you need to earn it" makes me want to run up to you and throw a flying kick right square into your ball sack. I know certain people who left their old guilds to be parts of the best guilds around in order to get the best stuff. Did you "earn it"? Or did you ride the coat tails of others who were already there and if you did does that mean you "earned it" more than someone raiding with the same guild 5 strait years through ups and downs? Not every server has the same raiding options. All this should have been handled in beta and since it wasnt a lot of people invested years worth of their plat and time to make this armor. NOONE should make fun or throw jabs at people who went this route when it was signed , sealed, approved , and delivered by the people who made with the intent of "closing the gap".

This whole thing reminds me of a rich person inheriting a fortune then telling some guy selling maps on the street corner that hes gonna have to "earn it" if he wants to get where he is. Be nice people.

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 06:20 PM
Sorry. Rot loot IN NO WAY hurts the game. Again it hurts YOUR feelings - as you say, you "despise situations where a Mob will drop 2 items and 2 molds and both molds rot." If you farm any zone for any reasonable length of time, that is going to begin happening. Heck we were seeing some DP drops very near rot after 2 or 3 clears (this was 5 or 6 months ago). Anguish was the same way after 5 or 6 clears iirc. Any guild that never has any loot rot either isn't farming it enough or is interested more in progression than gearing up all their members.

I tend to think the strength of EQ is in it's challenging content and not in your WOWification that this would represent if the developers had not woken up and realized this was an issue. They now see it as an issue and if you think it was only because a few high end raiders brought it to their attention then you are acting very naive. And yes, I am very much against anything being brought into the game that causes a player to decide to skip gear upgrades when that player breaks into higher progression content. I tend to think that if you gain access to new stuff, then you should also see better stuff to drop and upgrade with.

Ajax
12-11-2007, 07:47 PM
Ajax-- I cant believe you just tried to pull the wool over peoples eyes to help keep folks away from knowing the truth. If a purity aug is optional because its 1k orux which can be bazaar bought then a Sublime symbol for 500k which can also be bazaar bought , for a shit load more than 1000 orux is also optional and changes your stats by 320hp. If you are wanting a nerf for fairness lets at least have fair comparisons in the debate.


Even with a purity aug using a powersource that adds no hp does what then? It doesn't make it comparable. Soon as my guild beats Solteris 7 I plan on using the metal powersource myself which will render me 0 more hp. So if you would have read on like I had stated in there powersources are situational depending on the user. Besides the fact everyone is in an uproar crying about it being "nerfed" when in fact your getting the same HP, AC and various other mods everyone else got prior to SOFS. So what's the complaint? Are you pissed off your unfair advantage that you got is being taken away? Considering everyone else that has surpassed demiplane never got themselves. If you want the hp and mods you are asking for on it start raiding TBS or Sofs, otherwise stop bitching about your unfair advantage being taken away. The only one that has any compassion for you are the other people crying about it. The only thing that does suck is the people that wasted all the pp on it....

Archus
12-11-2007, 08:37 PM
And yes, I am very much against anything being brought into the game that causes a player to decide to skip gear upgrades when that player breaks into higher progression content. I tend to think that if you gain access to new stuff, then you should also see better stuff to drop and upgrade with.

Then you must be against the T2 groupable drops like the Scratched Hide Tunic which are upgrades to Demi-Plane and Deathknell gear. Oh wait, those are not expansions that you are currently farming or working on, so that doesn't affect YOU, so who cares right? Please stop being a hypocrite. New content always brings out group-able gear that is equivalent or better than raid gear. You and those in your camp are just pissed because this time it hits a little too close to home. You just gotta have that "gear buffer", I know.

thunderfoot
12-11-2007, 09:20 PM
Then you must be against the T2 groupable drops like the Scratched Hide Tunic which are upgrades to Demi-Plane and Deathknell gear. Oh wait, those are not expansions that you are currently farming or working on, so that doesn't affect YOU, so who cares right? Please stop being a hypocrite. New content always brings out group-able gear that is equivalent or better than raid gear. You and those in your camp are just pissed because this time it hits a little too close to home. You just gotta have that "gear buffer", I know.

I do not see those as upgrades except for their high AC. So you are saying that this http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=70026 is better than this http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=48909 ? You must be confused. The tier 4 group armor will be equivalent to Solteris in HPs. Play the damn game and get to that content. SOE bent over backwards to give groupers what they have been wanting, clear and meaningful group content progression. I have no issues what so ever other than the inherent mudflation that the tier 3 and 4 group armor brings into the game, but at least it is earned apart from holding onto a four expansion old Aug and just buying or farming your way through lower tier group content to rival Armor from an expansion that only 7 guilds I think had beaten before SOF went live.

Floppie7th
12-11-2007, 09:24 PM
Here is how it hurts the game. It increases the ROT rate of TSS and Solteris loot drops. What does that mean? It means when you kill a TSS AG or FC raid mob you have four items drops; 2 molds and 2 items. By giving players a means of not wishing to upgrade to that expansion's visible armor slots, you have cut the value of a TSS or a Solteris mob's loot by 50%. I like raiding stuff that drops gear that everyone wants. I like seeing kills where the loot all goes to guild members to increase their power so we can tackle tougher content. I despise situations where a Mob will drop 2 items and 2 molds and both molds rot.

Invalid point, by far. First of all, not everybody goes for the crafted gear; I don't have a single piece, and my guild's in DPoB...I've been working on farming for them, but I don't have a lot of time to farm, so I'm having less than stellar luck. So, not only is the huge timesink (or platsink, which is transitively a timesink) a difficult, it's a deterrent.

So even if we ignore the difficulty of getting the armor, you're missing one major point - not everybody is going to have it. The loot won't be rotting any more than it was previously, when cultural was still far better than the TSS mold gear.

Sslithx
12-11-2007, 09:25 PM
Hence the reason to defend folks from your post. Ive done trades since inception in 99. I spent somewhere around 3 million after sof release for myself and friends. And the unfair advantage you are speaking of is what? 17 ac? And remember when you call me a bitcher. I was one of the folks in beta trying to get this stuff lowered down on hps. Those who were told including myself that this stuff isnt being changed and is safe to go grab it should not have to endure jabs from fellow players or being called whiners for being upset about something 1000 percent not our fault. If something over powered were placed before you given a certain amount of effort and told it was "intended" and you didnt go grab it? Would your guild or friends not tell you to do so ? Come on. Folks have every reason in the world to complain. Many have spent their entire eq money on this stuff based on what they were told.

wycca
12-12-2007, 09:47 AM
This thread added humor to my morning!

Thanks btw.

IthenofBertox
12-12-2007, 11:11 AM
The arguement that last bloods or any of this stuff needs to be nerfed is bunk.

High end raiders whining like babies because their gear equipped with solteris augs is only 140hps with superior mods over last blood augs. Thats right. Using iksar boots as an example, Solteris aug'd max cultural gear with sublime comes out to 810 while demi augs come out to 670 with max cultural and sublime. And the solteris augs have more mods to boot. Cry me a river solt folks. Especially when you wield a ball of sunlight compared to my tonfa. Cry cry cry. Here's a tissue for ya.

There's plainly nothing for the high end raiders to complain about. There doesn't need to be a nerf of any kind.

Group gear has passed demi in some ways, but not in others. Go twink a monk in group gear and duel my monk in demi gear and see who wins. Your group twink will have more hps and nearly no mods. My near-max acc, max strikethrough, max avoidance, etc etc monk will whoop the group geared twink's behind. So go ahead and tell me there's no reason to raid anymore please. And when my toon gets all the cultural lastblood augs, the solt toons will still whoop my behind. So cry some more please. Here's another tissue for you.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot. For the folks who say guilds should skip demi and the rest and head straight for SoF.....go tell your guild where to raid and leave the guild I'm in alone. We'll choose our content ty vm. Our little guild likes beating all the expansions for the experience of doing so. We're not bent like the cry babies on having the top end gear all to ourselves.

Ithenofbertox
Do the monky with mah!

Souljahha
12-12-2007, 11:52 AM
lol getting 300 in tradeskills was not easy, it's a joke now for tailoring and smithing. Bet I spent as many hours farming drops as most have raided and millions in plat buying TS drops in baz to skill up. what little armor is available in baz is going at 500k on povar. Doubt many have millions to afford now add in the agaa/aoaa.... and another 500k for sublimes unless you have the skill to make better get to farming.

My biggest complaint is seeing loams/fluid/marrows drop in tier 1 zones. Makes it far to easy to get imo. I spent 6 hours in a tier 3 zone got 1 marrow in group. Spent 30 min soloing in loping 1 loam. That is a problem.

If you don't see how important ac is to us now, your sadly mistaken. I tanked a 4k hitting mob and the freaking bot cleric didn't even buff me.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a261/Souljahha/EQ000218.jpg

I'm sitting at 3300-3500 ac currently without any ac augs and almost 19k unbuffed. I'm out-tanking the vast majority of our knights now too. I'm happy monks are able to solo in a new expansion. There is group & fairly easy new raid content dropping raid level (TSS + gears). I'm also banking all my TSS armors and can buy solt armors if it comes to that.

Bottom line is no one is going to beat certain content without the other slot items and especially weapons. We still raid TSS for weps and armors are still being bought. I'm the only one in my guild with full gm armor and I'm holding up on arms atm to keep the focus of TSS (plus i need another tss/tbs/faycite aug). I chose to spend dkp on augs or i would have had numerous other upgrades in the last month including a better 2nd wep. So I used 3 last bloods and 1 bazu i had banked. Don't think i will upgrade those when able? If the nerf is bad I have my old armor to fall back on.

I have made 20 pieces or so of elegant armors and maybe 50 sublime augments. I've also failed about 20 combines at 345/300 in tailoring and smithing. at a 100k+ per risk.

sorry your e-peen is hurt, entirely your choice to use what armors you wish. Go hit solt or tss for some augments until you can open faycite dropping events. No one is stopping you.

we beat BM1 & BM2 first attempts (not tried BM3 yet) and still not beat solt 2 (aprothis to 94% (second attempt)) not sure how armors are over-powering lol I still get my ass handed to me at times. Reson we haven't beaten orc is weaponry we lack. Triton was pissed we beat those BM events lol. Didn't have spoilers, learned it on the fly. I didn't even do those raids in beta nor anyone in my guild.

Ughbash
12-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Thunderfoot,

First off I will apologize. Looking at your magelo I saw no Demi gear even augs and saw quite a few angusih pieces and augs so ASSUMED (yeah I made an Ass out of me) you had skipped Demi.

When I was in Demi, I looked at the Forgotten Artist and the Last Blood, and decided I would rather have Last Blood. Primarily for the AC. When we moved to TSS (again before the) new expansion, I looked at the TSS armor and decided I was gogin to stick with Last blood with the exception of Chest, Legs (anguish legs for the 8% block mod) and Arms (for block 5). This meant I was lagging other monks by about 2k hp, and a LOT of Mod2's. But I am an AC addict and it worked for me.

I got the TSS chest, and am happy with it. I have had LOUSY luck with the shoulders and thus still use my anguish legs for the 8% block mod. I haven't picked up arms for block 5 and now I MAY not, I am not sure there honestly depends how hard the nerf hits.

Filling my 6 last blood pieces with 5 exalted and 1 Sublime brought me to about 1k behind the rest of the monks. It breathed some new life into my armor and meant I could hold off a little longe rbefore upgrading it. It did NOT make it suddenly massively better. My mod2's still stink, and my HP are still sub par. The only thing I really have going for me is 3300 unbuffed AC (magelo lies and shorts me).

I currently have Spellshield of I think 10 and 6 of that is from an aug. This definitely hurts on raids. That is one of the sacrafices people make with going for cultured.

It is not a walk into the bazaar and you are now endgame which so many people seem to want to claim it is.

Archus
12-12-2007, 01:24 PM
I have no issues what so ever other than the inherent mudflation that the tier 3 and 4 group armor brings into the game, but at least it is earned apart from holding onto a four expansion old Aug and just buying or farming your way through lower tier group content to rival Armor from an expansion that only 7 guilds I think had beaten before SOF went live.

Ahhh. Finally, you have let go of all of your BS justifications and admitted the truth. This is an issue of having your feelings hurt and nothing else. I actually have more respect for you now (and no, I'm not being sarcastic).

thunderfoot
12-12-2007, 02:50 PM
Ahhh. Finally, you have let go of all of your BS justifications and admitted the truth. This is an issue of having your feelings hurt and nothing else. I actually have more respect for you now (and no, I'm not being sarcastic).

It is not a "Feelings" issue. If you want Solteris gear then raid Solteris or SOF Tier 2(just a few HPs below Solteris) or if you just want the raw HPs of Solteris then obtain the Tier 4 group armor of SOF. Going into Demiplane and expecting to come out with an AUG and buying your way to Solteris level gear is retarded. If you cannot see that then there really is nothing left to say to you.

Pliko
12-12-2007, 03:17 PM
Guess what the whole POINT of SOF was to make that other stuff NOT be required. So you need to get over yourself and move on. And guess what Elegant +Sublime + Bazu << Solteris gear, just like Elegant + Sublime + LB is also < Solteris gear.

Yeah, along comes Kaliala to make idiotic comments as usual. First of all, an expansion isnt supposed to instantly make "that other stuff" not required. Guilds arent supposed to be able to instantly catch up, thats not the point of an expansion... I need to get over myself??? How about you get a reality check.

Elegant wristband 40ac 65hps
Sublime Symbol 320hps
Bazu of whatever 180hps

thats 70ac 565hps
for lastbloods
thats 85 ac 595hps

So you claim that these are < than solteris gear??

Hardened Energeiac Leather Wristguard
AC: 39
STR: +30 DEX: +30 STA: +30 CHA: +30 WIS: +30 INT: +30 AGI: +30 HP: +500 ENDUR: +500
SV FIRE: +32 SV DISEASE: +32 SV COLD: +32 SV MAGIC: +32 SV POISON: +32
Combat Effects: +9 Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +3% Avoidance: +5 Strikethrough: +3% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +25 Regeneration: +2


Please explain how, since you seem to think 95 hps less and 46ac less (I wont even go into comparing the mods because sublime+bazu even is ahead there) makes an item better.

What a joke..

Suyacidal
12-12-2007, 04:30 PM
I'm just curious here, how does the new cultural gear affect the solt. + guilds / raiders at all? It doesn't stop you from raiding, it doesn't limit what you can do, it really doesn't have any real physical limitations on you at all. Why does it bother you that some people who do not have the time to raid 5 days a week get a nice upgrade, it clearly doesnt match solt gear, doesnt touch sof raid gear, the mods on are far inferior to solt gear. I'm just not seeing a good legitimate argument from the people who are pro-nerf.

From where I stand, it seems like a good idea to get more people to have fun in the game, I mean, how much more time do you think this game is going to be financially viable for SoE to go on with? The population is declining, EQ is in a nose dive on its way to a firey death, why try and piss off the majority to the point they quit and accelerate the death of a game you clearly still enjoy. Are your egos that fragile where you would cut off your noses to spite your faces? Sure it wont kill it in a day or a week, but look at it like this. Im in a raiding guild that raids 4 days a week, doing demi and dk currently, we are stagnating and having trouble with numbers day to day, this nerf will most likely drive away say 5- 10 people, now we will really be stagnating, which will drive away more, till eventually the guild will fold, I have been in this guild for years, like many many others, I wont go apply to another guild, I will quit as well. I can see this happening to most mid lvl guilds, which will shorten the life of this game dramatically all because your egos were sensitive? Sorry, but I just dont see any common sense or logic being used by the pro-nerf people.

thunderfoot
12-12-2007, 05:26 PM
Rashere posted this last Friday. If those here that are claiming it is not detrimental to the game to leave it as is, please contact the SOE development team and explain your point to them. None of us are able to make decisions one way or the other on what remains in the game or what is taken out of it. However, having the design team come to this conclusion on their own only after the players pointed these things out pretty much serves to refute any argument against this adjustment, unless those who are making such claims can provide evidence and supporting precedences from EQ history where such things did not lead to detrimental outcomes within the game.

"The insanely long thread had no bearing apart from drawing attention to a potential problem. As Nodyin mentioned, now that the systems team is mostly back in the office after the launch, we had a several hour meeting yesterday where we discussed the situation to see if there was even a real problem or if it was just another case of jealousy as often happens on these forums.

We poured over the different armor sets to see where equivalencies actually fell and then looked for potentially mitigating factors that would balance out the very high stats on the gears. Mods ended up being mostly capped, so the lesser amount ended up being functionally equivalent in most cases. Focus effects make the gear a bit less desireable for casters, but the main problem with the gear is tanks, not casters. The items required to get the gear are readily available, so difficulty of obtaining it is also largely irrelevant. You can purchase the majority of it in the bazaar and the only dropped piece is incredibly common...and if you don't have them now, you can get them easily enough with a couple groups in 4 expansion old content.

After the review, it became apparent that there really was a problem that the potential mitigating factors just didn't address. Compounding things, the newly introduced level 75 seal actually grants even better armor, higher than Solteris level gear, without having done raiding at anywhere near Solteris level."

Archus
12-12-2007, 05:55 PM
It is not a "Feelings" issue. If you want Solteris gear then raid Solteris or SOF Tier 2(just a few HPs below Solteris) or if you just want the raw HPs of Solteris then obtain the Tier 4 group armor of SOF. Going into Demiplane and expecting to come out with an AUG and buying your way to Solteris level gear is retarded. If you cannot see that then there really is nothing left to say to you.

I'm not buying my way up to Solteris level gear. I have done the quests, maxed the tradeskills, and farmed the drops, and then made the gear myself. I didn't 'expect' any of this, but since it was tested and released and we were told repeatedly in the first couple weeks that it was 'intended', then yes, I find a nerf quite problematic. If they had listened to people in beta or had tuned it more properly, this would not be an issue with me or anyone else, but they had a Thanksgiving deadline to meet and damned if they weren't going to meet it. Well now they are paying the price for that - well actually I guess I will be paying that price and the others in my situation.

And as far as quoting Rashere, I could also quote him from just a week or two prior to your quote where he says these stats were intended and balanced. Like a presidential candidate, the guy is a flip-flopper. His 'golden boys' were pissed, so he had a 'meeting' and now there will be a nerf. Well now there is an equally long (perhaps longer) and angrier thread about the nerf, so don't be surprised if he flip-flops again and makes the nerf minimal. How happy with him will you be then? And, oh by the way, he STILL has not said HOW this will hurt the game - no one has really. I say again, you could outfit entire guilds in this stuff in every slot, and no one will be able to skip TSS and have success in Solteris. Sure people could skip Anguish or Deathknell or DP, but no one really cares about those expansions anymore and people were doing that already.

caaneq
12-12-2007, 05:58 PM
ok so it speeds up progression from guilds in DP and DK through TSS into solteris. What harms that? You still need the dps to do sisters, and i don't see that happening with demiplane weapons. even at lvl 80. If you cant be sisters you cant progress in solteris.

You're looking at Cleave VI and fero VI at best if you even skip TSS vs. cleave VII and fero VII, and thats IF that guild decided to do dp as some are claiming you can eve skip that...thats absurd and i doubt you know wtf you're talking about at this point. The dps requirements for that initial event is just too high for a full cultural dp guild. You still need to go through TSS and possibly even dk though DK can be avoided (it even has prior to 80). You'll miss improved dodge/block/parry etc V vs. III or IV on your last bloods or demiplane armor. You can not skip content. So molds rot faster, people get through content that they paid for quicker why should that be any of your concern in the first place what guilds do outside of your own?

The visible armor is overpowered, but you dont need to go nerfing last bloods that have been in content for 2 years, just because it fits into a new item with a new aug. CoA lvl guilds aren't crying about group gear that is even/better than CoA can offer.

Leksikon
12-12-2007, 06:54 PM
Yeah, along comes Kaliala to make idiotic comments as usual. First of all, an expansion isnt supposed to instantly make "that other stuff" not required. Guilds arent supposed to be able to instantly catch up, thats not the point of an expansion... I need to get over myself??? How about you get a reality check.

Elegant wristband 40ac 65hps
Sublime Symbol 320hps
Bazu of whatever 180hps

thats 70ac 565hps
for lastbloods
thats 85 ac 595hps

So you claim that these are < than solteris gear??

Hardened Energeiac Leather Wristguard
AC: 39
STR: +30 DEX: +30 STA: +30 CHA: +30 WIS: +30 INT: +30 AGI: +30 HP: +500 ENDUR: +500
SV FIRE: +32 SV DISEASE: +32 SV COLD: +32 SV MAGIC: +32 SV POISON: +32
Combat Effects: +9 Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +3% Avoidance: +5 Strikethrough: +3% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +25 Regeneration: +2


Please explain how, since you seem to think 95 hps less and 46ac less (I wont even go into comparing the mods because sublime+bazu even is ahead there) makes an item better.

What a joke..

Seriously, if you're going to go through this apples to apples shit, get two apples. Put a raid aug in that bracer and add a powersource. I'm not disagreeing with your point, but in all fairness you haven't made a valid one until you make an accurate comparison.

Edit - and I still stand by my previous post:

It's all bullshit.

wycca
12-12-2007, 07:54 PM
A raid aug in the bracer? You do realize that raid level augs are all over group content nowadays right?

Not to mention infinitely more available.

Rukirn
12-12-2007, 08:55 PM
A raid aug in the bracer? You do realize that raid level augs are all over group content nowadays right?

Not to mention infinitely more available.

I think his point was comparing a fully-aug'd cultural bracer to a solt bracer with no aug and no powersource is not a valid comparison.

Ajax
12-12-2007, 10:08 PM
I think his point was comparing a fully-aug'd cultural bracer to a solt bracer with no aug and no powersource is not a valid comparison.

Cultural bracer wasn't fully augged still had slot 7 open just as did the solt bracer. And raid augs no longer drop in the new expansion. And there are only 4 In solteris that drop and they don't drop that often.

Ugle
12-13-2007, 12:01 AM
I think the people complaining about how this doesn't hurt the game are more into e-peen comparisons then the raiders who are complaining about the gear.

For the majority of raiders I've met......
Raiding isn't about how many HP are on the gear. It's not about what the ratio on the weapons is. It's not about how much accuracy they have. It's about working your butt off, working together to beat an event, and getting upgrades to reflect their combined time and effort.

Tell me why in the hell anyone would choose to get faction, and go through all of the flagging content for raids.....to get gear that's worse then what they are wearing? Why deal with a 17K hitting MOB with AE rampage or stuff with really nasty DoT's just to get to a zone that drops gear where more of it will rot then be used? I might as well grab my bot Shaman and go farming - it would be more productive. Risk versus reward has been borked for a long time, but it's ridiculous that 50+ 3 day a week raiders raiding for months may never be able to raid for armor that is as good as some dude 2-boxing 5 hours a week can make. If you can't understand that then you should be pestering Magelo to let you enter in your own stats instead of commenting on what's good for the game.

Archus
12-13-2007, 02:41 AM
I think the people complaining about how this doesn't hurt the game are more into e-peen comparisons then the raiders who are complaining about the gear.

Heh. I could care less where I stack up. Unlike some of the upper level raiders that raised the stink, I only worry about myself and my guild, not what others have or are doing. My problem is that this is a nerf pure and simple. Some day in January I will login to find my gear significantly worse than it was the day before. Thats a nerf. Sorry. I don't like it. Especially after the devs initially said this was all intended.


For the majority of raiders I've met......
Raiding isn't about how many HP are on the gear. It's not about what the ratio on the weapons is. It's not about how much accuracy they have. It's about working your butt off, working together to beat an event, and getting upgrades to reflect their combined time and effort.

I would agree with most of what you said here. However, when you are raiding content that is not from one of the last 2 expansions, the upgrades are often not reflective of time and effort because the newest expansion typically has groupable or questable items that are comparable and/or better. Having said that,there are STILL upgrades I am looking forward to in Solteris, TSS, and even DK, which we just cleared for the first time. The cultural armor, nerfed or un-nerfed, is not going to change that. If my guild was just about maxing gear, the rise to level 80 alone would be enough to allow us to skip straight to TSS. If I was just about maxing stats, I could guild hop to a guild that is at Solteris+ level. None of that is important to me though.


Tell me why in the hell anyone would choose to get faction, and go through all of the flagging content for raids.....to get gear that's worse then what they are wearing? Why deal with a 17K hitting MOB with AE rampage or stuff with really nasty DoT's just to get to a zone that drops gear where more of it will rot then be used? I might as well grab my bot Shaman and go farming - it would be more productive. Risk versus reward has been borked for a long time, but it's ridiculous that 50+ 3 day a week raiders raiding for months may never be able to raid for armor that is as good as some dude 2-boxing 5 hours a week can make. If you can't understand that then you should be pestering Magelo to let you enter in your own stats instead of commenting on what's good for the game.

You are overstating the problem. TSS molds will not rot for awhile in any guild. Cultural is only available in 8 slots. Most toons are not going to want it in all slots due to foci, mods, or w/e, and thats assuming that everyone has cultural as an option. Not everyone will know a GM TS'r to make the combine or have the pp to buy the stuff or have the time to farm for it. Also, I never said the cultural was _good_ for the game, but I stand by my statement that it does NOT break or hurt this game in any way. Even if you gear every slot in every toon in every guild that is not yet in TSS, they will not be able to skip right to Solteris and have success. I never asked for this level of gear, nor did I expect it. But once it went live and I made my own with assurances from the devs that this is what they intended, then yes, I feel justified in being upset when it gets nerfed. If you, as a monk, can't understand people being upset about a nerf in principle (no matter how justified you may believe it to be), then well, there's nothing more I can say to you to make you understand.

BrueFromXev
12-13-2007, 05:34 AM
Here's a case study with my guild. I am in a T1 Demi guild.

I work 1-2 hours late several times a week. I work out after work three times a week. I have a regular Thursday night seat with some friends at a sports bar until the end of the NFL season. I am taking online classes that, while not requiring specific nights off, do require that I dedicate a few hours several times a week. I am working on starting my own web business in my free time. I play EQ when I can because I enjoy the company of the people in my guild and like working through all of the encounters.

May your e-peen swell with the thought that I fully admit that I could not make it in a bleeding edge guild. May it swell further with the thought I have neither the time to make a single piece of my own elegant/sublime gear nor the time to farm the plat to purchase it... let alone a full set. I have one piece of 70/70/Bazu gear and the amount of time it took to get (I farmed all of the AAAA bits since I couldn't afford one) only solidified my position that I don't have the time, even with gnome bolts becoming so common (are they even used any more?). On an individual level, your magelo is safe from me.

Within my guild, there is a handful of people that do play enough to (eventually) make/purchase a full set of the new gear. There is even one SK that already has 8 pieces of elegant gear and 3 sublime, 5 exalted, 3 Last Blood, and 2 Bazu augs to go with it (quite possibly as much new cultural gear on him as the rest of my guild combined at this point and the only person with 5 Bazu/Last Blood augs, fwiw). If you do the math, you can note that he is wearing 3 pieces of new cultural without any raid augs at all. There are a handful of people with 3 or 4 raid augs and 20-25 people with 1 or 2 raid augs. There are probably some banked Bazu augs that will be coming out of retirement over the next few months. Also, as we continue to farm the parts of Demi that we've beat and push through the rest, those numbers will go up, but we are by no means swimming in last bloods to pimp out the entire guild in 8 pieces each.

Of the people that don't have any cultural, most of them are in the same situation I am in. They just don't have the play time to farm up the pieces/plat and even if everyone did, we still have raid drops limiting us. To put it another way, we have probably done 50 Anguish runs by now and, despite the superiority of 70/70/Bazu, and even Praetorian in many cases, we have yet to see a single piece of Anguish quest gear rot.

We are currently stalled in T1. I think we're pretty close to both Hatchet and Redfang, but our first Demi raid was 28 July, so yeah... we're stalled a bit. Here's the main reason.

One of the central principles of our guild is that everyone is completely free to choose their own level of participation. One of the results of that is that raiding is *never* mandatory. We have members that quite literally never raid. We have 99 mains right now, but typically only get about 40-45 toons for raids (including bots). Sometimes it's much less. On events like Hatchet where everyone needs experience, it's several runs before we get most of our people experience. It's several more before we get to the point that the majority of the people really understand what is going on. Also, the end of our first Hatchet attempt is about the time people need to start logging off for cooking diner, work, birthday parties, bowling leagues, spending time with their kids, cleaning their home, etc so we usually only get one run on Hatchet per raid.

Of the 8ish people that I imagine will get a lot of the new cultural gear, 5 are tanks (the only classes that can benefit enough from the new gear to boost an entire guild). Of those 5, we usually won't have more than 3 on any given raid. That's won't power-progress us through Hatchet, let alone all the way through TSS.

Your entire guild can now stroke its collective e-peen because the truth is that my guild, as a whole, could not keep up with the uber guilds either. As a whole, we do not have the time or resources (/wave raid lockouts) to suddenly deck our entire guild out in 80/80/LB. Even if we all logged on and suddenly found that we all were decked out in elegant/sublime gear with Last Blood augs, we still don't have the non-visible gear/weapons, focii, or AAs. Even if we all logged on to find all of our characters maxed out with the best gear in the game pre-SoF, we would not be able to keep up with the uber guilds because 1 or 2 max participation raids a week won't get us through the completely unknown encounters and we would probably never spend 8 hours doing the same thing 10 times in a row, and even if we did dedicate a day to learning an encounter, the next time we went out at least half the raid would be new to the event. Back in reality, all of your magelos are safe from us.

Despite all claims to the contrary, this change stands to IMPROVE the game for those that it would affect the most. Even if TBS was the last EQ expansion and none of this new gear came out, it was only a matter of time before my guild finished T1, T2, DK, etc. All this does is speed up the process. We don't need to spend as long on each encounter. We don't need to spend as much time farming. It doesn't give us a free pass to skip content (not that we'd want to anyway), it just speeds up the process... that sounds like a GOOD thing to me. Most importantly of all for me, it helps keep a guild with principles like mine practical. I'm sure we could make it through DK with the game as it is pre-SoF, but at some point we would have to mandate that people participate... or at least change our membership to only include people that would use their freedom of participation to choose to raid more frequently (which is essentially requiring raiding via recruiting).

Unlike the high end, there is no glory in throwing yourself at the encounter 20 times and then being the 258th guild to beat it. You can call it easy mode or whatever, but I don't play this game for glory. I just want to see everything and enjoy the trip with the great people in my guild. I'd imagine I'm not alone on that.

The supposed "game hurting" BS about rotting gear doesn't apply either because we would actually need to halt our progression at some point to get enough last bloods to deck out the entire guild. 800 last bloods would take a awful long time to farm.

Even if there is some guild out there that decides this is their ticket to uberness and farms the hell out of everything all of the cultural gear... lets say there are only about 65 people in the guild because they are an efficient hardcore raiding guild, how much work do you think it will take to get 520 pieces of armor, 520 symbols, and 520 last bloods? They'd be almost done with DK by that time anyway and *still* be in worse shape for Solteris than a guild wearing full TSS gear. Maybe they only farm the pieces up for their tanks... how much good does it do them when nobody has the extra HP and mod2s to survive the AE affects (or better weapons and focii for dps).

Now just to clarify (my earlier posts in this thread can confirm it), I actually have no problem with nerfing the elegant/exalted/sublime stuff and buffing the high end raid augs to compensate. By a pure eyeball test, they do seem out of alignment with previous EQ expansions, however this is absolutely ZERO reason why leaivng everything exactly how it is is game breaking. If nothing else, the fact that the devs stated so many times that it was all as intended should be reason enough to leave it in (i.e. credibility).

Think of it this way... everyone that is complaining about the power of 80/80/LB gear is at the point in the game that they are almost past it. Everyone else seems to think it's a good thing. Think about that for a bit and then try to explain to me how people don't like the new gear for anything other than e-peen reasons.



P.S. To Wycca, I really respect you most of the time, but your "I'm looking down from the mountain laughing at all the idiots" posts make you look like an arrogant prick. If you have some sekret knowledge that illuminates the whole thing, than by all means, share it. If you've already said all you have to say, then you are in fact just being an arrogant prick.

wycca
12-13-2007, 06:42 AM
You're right, I am being an arrogant prick, I suppose that's wrong, but I'm sort of annoyed at the content of this thread to say the least. The fact of the matter is, something is out of whack, and theres people who suddenly pretend they are on Jerry Springer with the comments they make and the way they treat their fellow posters. Sue me if I don't find it amusing AND annoying, posting that, is my way of reminding people that they should really read what they're saying. I probably could have done that better, but working 80hr weeks sort of makes me be rather blunt.

I respect the fact that some people don't want to be nerfed, that is a universal feeling. My opinion is well known - I think that there is nothing right, no matter what stories or justifications people may come up with, about farming 4 expansion/ 2 year old content plus spending some cash to get Solteris or SoF Tier 3 Raid gear. That's my opinion, if you don't happen to share it - great - this is a fine place to say so and provide support for your opinion. Just as other people have done so about their views. Many of you are capable of expressing that respectively, but past a point, it stops being that, and becomes something else.

I suppose the most sensible thing to do, is to just start editing/deleting posts. If you are a bit cloudy on board rules, check here - http://www.monkly-business.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1509 I won't tolerate any further insults, aimed at any person, dev, or any group of players. I can't stop people from being emotional or posting things that others find disagreeable to the same emotional extent, but you WILL respect your fellow posters on this forum. I don't like being draconian, because we all do things that arn't intelligent (including myself) and there is a certain amount of leeway in that regard, but the general ill-will some people are espousing in this thread is going to end.

wycca
12-13-2007, 07:09 AM
Brue - You're killing content tuned for level 70 raiders in roughly Anguish level gear and spending some plat/time on gear that a single group can get. The end result is roughly the same as a reward from Solteris and the Tier 2/3 Raids (depending on your particular archetype and class - for monks it is closer to Tier 3 raids).

You ARE NOT completing appropriate content for the reward that is the end product. That is the problem. The reward you are intended to be getting from Demi-Plane level content is...Demi-Plane in quality. The level 70 cultural and symbols plus the last blood is intended to be....similar to Demi-Plane armor. You gain in flexibility for what you loose on those sets in focus.

Whatever the way that was available/was picked to correct the issue, I do not see how anyone can defend 4 expansion-old items + group content suddenly rivaling the gear that it does currently.

Tradeskilling isn't that difficult. I'm a 300 Tailor, Jeweler, Potter, Brewer, and Baker - Smithing and Fletching are over 280 each atm. I've also made the new symbols. I've also 1-grouped bazu droppers at lvl 70, and I've also done LB droppers in the same gear you're using (or worse probably)...minus 10 levels, with 30 people. Sorry if that sounds elitist, that is simple fact, and I'm just establishing the difficulty of those mobs at the time they were new. I've also spent the last 2 years progressing through raid content with my ~50 other people, and I am capable of getting Tier 3 raid SoF armor (wrists only atm though - since nobody has access to the other stuff yet!). I'm sorry, there is an imbalance of at least time, and also a bunch of other things I'm sure I'd get called elitist for mentioning.

The correction to that imbalance will have the rewards still be appropriate to the content that drops them (LB+lvl 70 armor/symbols = DP level loot, etc etc), and it will even allow you to take 4 expansion-old drops and use them on newer armor for a LARGER benefit than any other type 12 augs available to you outside of the raid drops. The final result, will just not be as expansion-skippingly-large as it is currently.

Kaliaila
12-13-2007, 09:00 AM
Please explain how, since you seem to think 95 hps less and 46ac less (I wont even go into comparing the mods because sublime+bazu even is ahead there) makes an item better.

As someone already pointed out, you chose to omit the fact that the armor piece you listed was not modified by a powersouce which is what those armors are balanced by with respect to the cultural ones as for how powerful they were to be.

Bazu:

Elegant Sagacious Armband (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: WRIST
AC: 70
STR: +24 DEX: +21 STA: +24 CHA: +22 WIS: +23 INT: +23 AGI: +22
HP: +560 MANA: +560 ENDUR: +560
SV FIRE: +35 SV DISEASE: +35 SV COLD: +34 SV MAGIC: +34 SV POISON: +34

Shielding: +2% Spell Shield: +1% Avoidance: +2 Accuracy: +8
Stun Resist: +2% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +30 Regeneration: +3
Clairvoyance: 1
Recommended level of 79. Required level of 75.
Effect: Improved Block III (Worn, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 70
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: DRU MNK
Race: HUM
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 11 (Cultural: Deity) Sublime Wrist Symbol of the Skeptic
Slot 3, Type 12 (Cultural: Raid) Bazu Seal of Block



Last Blood:

Elegant Sagacious Armband (Augmented)
MAGIC ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: WRIST
AC: 85
STR: +26 DEX: +23 STA: +26 CHA: +24 WIS: +25 INT: +25 AGI: +24
HP: +590 MANA: +590 ENDUR: +590
SV FIRE: +38 SV DISEASE: +38 SV COLD: +37 SV MAGIC: +37 SV POISON: +37
Shielding: +2% Spell Shield: +1% Avoidance: +2 Accuracy: +9
Stun Resist: +2% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +35 Regeneration: +4 Damage Shield: +1 Clairvoyance: 1
Recommended level of 79. Required level of 75.
Effect: Improved Block III (Worn, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 70
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: DRU MNK
Race: HUM
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 11 (Cultural: Deity) Sublime Wrist Symbol of the Skeptic
Slot 3, Type 12 (Cultural: Raid) Last Blood of the Foot Soldier

Hardened Energeiac Leather Wristguard (with no Powersource)
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: WRIST
Purity: 95
AC: 39
STR: +30 DEX: +30 STA: +30 CHA: +30 WIS: +30 INT: +30 AGI: +30 HP: +500 ENDUR: +500
SV FIRE: +32 SV DISEASE: +32 SV COLD: +32 SV MAGIC: +32 SV POISON: +32
Combat Effects: +9 Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +3% Avoidance: +5 Strikethrough: +3% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +25 Regeneration: +2
Required level of 75.
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: MNK
Race: HUM IKS DRK
Slot 1, Type 8 (General: Raid)
Slot 2, type 14 (Energeiac: Raid) Polished Phosphite Jewel

Hardened Energeiac Leather Wristguard (with Pure Energeian Elemental Orb)
MAGIC ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: WRIST
Purity: 95
AC: 48
STR: +49 DEX: +49 STA: +49 CHA: +49 WIS: +49 INT: +49 AGI: +49
HP: +595 ENDUR: +500
SV FIRE: +60 SV DISEASE: +60 SV COLD: +60 SV MAGIC: +60 SV POISON: +60
Combat Effects: +9 Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +3% Avoidance: +5 Strikethrough: +3% DoT Shielding: +3% Attack: +25 Regeneration: +2
Required level of 75.
WT: 0.5 Size: MEDIUM
Class: MNK
Race: HUM IKS DRK
Slot 1, Type 8 (General: Raid)
Slot 2, type 14 (Energeiac: Raid) Polished Phosphite Jewel

And that is one way, the only actual place where the Last Blood cultural is heads above the solteris gear is the AC which is a problem with the actual Elegant armor not the LB aug. There are also other powersources which give even higher AC/HP but they reduce some stats and/or resists. The resists going down can be an issue, but the stats are really a non issue as with the gear at either level you are well above the stat caps that are important for your class even with the negatives. And if necessary you can change powersources to best fit what you are doing at that time. Need more ac do one that has good AC. Then there are all the other slots in which you will have that much better gear in. Or is the Solteris non-visible gear = to Demiplane now too? Also the wrist (which you chose to use), gloves, and boots, on the Solteris gear doesn't have any compareable focii on it. The Arms or leggings would have probably been the best full comparison. In those cases you would also be comparing Cleave/Ferocity V in the bazu/LB verus Cleave/Ferocity VII in the Solteris equivolents. Maybe it's just me but think I would take the Solteris gear thanks.


And Wycca you just keep telling yourself that.

Vhaus
12-13-2007, 11:45 AM
This issue gives me a headache.

thunderfoot
12-13-2007, 01:05 PM
You admit that the AC on the cultural in your example is 85 compared to 48 on the powered up Solteris (which is a pain in the ass because of having to swap power sources in and out) while the powered up Solteris armor beats the cultural by a whopping 5 Hps. Sorry, but you hurt your argument by posting what you did. If anything it shows that what Rashere posted was correct and what we have been saying all along is correct, that LB + 80 Cultural Armor + 80 Symbol > Powered Solteris Armor.

As for your point about Fero 7 and Cleave 7 making Solteris better than Cultural, I have both of those and it was not from Solteris gear. TSS, which seems to have been lost in all of this discussion, yet is far and away a hell of a lot easier than Solteris grants those focuses on the none visible armor slots.

Floppie7th
12-13-2007, 01:27 PM
You're conveniently forgetting a major point. SoF armor is supposed to have considerably more AC, on leather gear, than anything else. My tier1, single-group dropped gloves have 43AC. Unaugged.

Ughbash
12-13-2007, 01:34 PM
You admit that the AC on the cultural in your example is 85 compared to 48 on the powered up Solteris (which is a pain in the ass because of having to swap power sources in and out) while the powered up Solteris armor beats the cultural by a whopping 5 Hps. Sorry, but you hurt your argument by posting what you did. If anything it shows that what Rashere posted was correct and what we have been saying all along is correct, that LB + 80 Cultural Armor + 80 Symbol > Powered Solteris Armor.

As for your point about Fero 7 and Cleave 7 making Solteris better than Cultural, I have both of those and it was not from Solteris gear. TSS, which seems to have been lost in all of this discussion, yet is far and away a hell of a lot easier than Solteris grants those focuses on the none visible armor slots.

My AC on my LB gear was greater then Solteris BEFORE elegant and Sublime, thats why I wore it. It was not better then Solteris gear due to mod2's but for my purposes (tanking for a group of eitehr 3 or 6) the high AC was beneficial.

Are you now saying that LB needs to be nerfed to the point that it is less AC then Solteris gear even though for two years it had Higher AC? Despite the fact that the Developers said last blood gear with elaborate was not the problem? I was pushing 3200 AC prior to this change using Last Blood. So even without the 2 pieces of elegant (which increased ac) and the Symbols (which did not increase AC) I out AC'd most Sotleris monks.

My wrists are AC 61 and AC 71 Respectively (with no new AC from expansion).
My Boots are AC 88 again with no AC from this expansion.
My Helm is AC 89 again with no AC from expansion.

My Arms and Gloves have gotten AC boosts from this expansion since they are Elegant, but they woudl still have been well ahead of Solteris in AC anyways.

The only differnce is now people are realizing what some of us have said for the last couple of years, AC matters. My gear is not OVERPOWERED with AC, Solteris, TSS, and Forgotten Artist was UDNERPOWERED with AC.

I have said it before if you want to change anything change the new Symbols, (exalted and Sublime) and then give MORE power to the Faycite, Sunshard, and Serpents Essence to make up for this nerf.

Changing 2 year old content is silly.

Archus
12-13-2007, 02:14 PM
The final result, will just not be as expansion-skippingly-large as it is currently.

Wycca, I understand and respect your position, but I respectfully still say that no one will be skipping expansions due to this gear (well not TSS or TBS anyways - and the other expansions were sometimes skipped before this whole mess already).

Also, as many have already pointed out, leather class comparisons are difficult from an AC standpoint because SoF saw the devs narrow the gap between leather and plate AC the way we have been screaming at them to do for some time. As Wycca also pointed out in another post (Equipment forum if you want to find it), Rashere did not want to retroactively 'fix' the AC on Solteris leather. Therefore, the AC disparity between the new cultural and Solteris gear is going to be artificially large since the new cultural armor itself (without any type 12 aug) benefits from this 'new' narrower leather-plate AC gap while Solteris gear does not.

wycca
12-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Wycca, I understand and respect your position, but I respectfully still say that no one will be skipping expansions due to this gear (well not TSS or TBS anyways - and the other expansions were sometimes skipped before this whole mess already).

Also, as many have already pointed out, leather class comparisons are difficult from an AC standpoint because SoF saw the devs narrow the gap between leather and plate AC the way we have been screaming at them to do for some time. As Wycca also pointed out in another post (Equipment forum if you want to find it), Rashere did not want to retroactively 'fix' the AC on Solteris leather. Therefore, the AC disparity between the new cultural and Solteris gear is going to be artificially large since the new cultural armor itself (without any type 12 aug) benefits from this 'new' narrower leather-plate AC gap while Solteris gear does not.

I don't necessarily disagree, but that wasn't exactly the point of my comment. Since I sometime enjoy playing the Devil's Advocate (perhaps a bit too much), I will say this - People said guilds would not skip VT and still be able to hit the EP's, yet some did. The same can be said of time and later content, or DK and TSS, etc. While I think that it's possible that there is less risky behavior in mid-tier guilds as a result of game aging than there has been in the past, and thus less risk (the consequences of skipping content and taking a bit longer than intended = lost members if you fail - most guilds are paranoid of anything like that happening so much that they don't take risks like they used to IMO), it's still entirely possible to skip expansions. As a matter of fact, I think it's more possible than ever to a certain extent. So I can see guilds parlaying it into a stronger position at skipping content if they wanted to. It's by no means something that really concerns me - because I've been in guilds who have skipped content and I'm all about trying it, nor does it threaten me in anyway. The problem I had is that there is an imbalance in the challenge vs reward equation there, that equates into "expansion-skippingly-large" gear jumps. Anyways just a clarification.

Although, frankly, if I were still an officer/guild leader, I'd be a bit more worried that several tank classes would take that armor and try to jump into guilds with stricter equipment requirements than they qualify for in DP-level gear. As having that level of gear in 8 slots would be more attractive to a near-end-game guild than DP gear would be. Very attractive actually to a guild say, working on Solteris, or even some of the guilds who have been in Solteris for awhile (more guilds than you know are desperate for people I'd guess).

IthenofBertox
12-13-2007, 02:55 PM
Apples to Apples again.

You have to compare Cultural with Solt/TSS augs VS Cultural with Last bloods. Solt/TSS > Last bloods. That's really all there is too it. Everybody gets a boost to deal with the higher hp/higher hitting mobs.

Whomever stated that nobody wants a full set of cultural is absolutely correct. The mods just don't stack up to max acc wearing full cultural. It is, however, great for some slots like boots.

Old expansions still have some specific items for specific slots that are best. For instance, are there any legs out there with an 8% block besides anguish legs? Is there anything for hands with the VT mod (fabled omg uber)? I don't think there is. Should those be nerfed now because they are better than your 800hps items? Nope, so leave em be. There's just no need for a nerf. (the legs are my opinion only)

I put my son's beasty in a full set of Cultural without last bloods. He's 11.2k unbuffed at lvl75. I'm not gonna complain (being nice and not say 'cry') because he's at anguish level + for plat. But given the theory of the high enders, I should be complaining really hard. That's only 2k below me in Demi gear! But I'm not a whiner, so I won't complain. I darn sure don't want a nerf of last bloods though. It's not needed.

Ithen
296 tailor as well

thunderfoot
12-13-2007, 04:11 PM
Are you now saying that LB needs to be nerfed to the point that it is less AC then Solteris gear even though for two years it had Higher AC?

No, not at all. My response was to the poster who was still trying to claim that the current LB + 80 Cultural Armor + 80 Symbol combo was inferior to the Solteris armor. A fully powered up Solteris bracer is a whopping 5 More Hps than that other combo with a hell of a lot more ac; and something you all are failing to actknowledge is that this is with a power source added that does run out. I know of no one who leaves their power source in all the time. Do you all run with Tribute turned on every minute you are online? Power sources do deplete and new ones must be purchased. But that is not really related to the comparision because even with the power source, the Solteris armor does not come out ahead.

Soygen
12-13-2007, 05:23 PM
As someone who hasn't played in a couple years, please explain "power sources". They sound like a pain in the ass.

thunderfoot
12-13-2007, 06:43 PM
As someone who hasn't played in a couple years, please explain "power sources". They sound like a pain in the ass.

With TBS and beyond, armor and certain weapons now can be "powered up" to increased stats. There is an additional slot on your character's inventory page where you can place a power source. Different power sources provide different benefits. Think of a power source as equipment tribute. When you place a power source into this slot, its bonus is applied to all gear you are currently wearing that is affected by the power source. An item's Purity affects how much of an affect the power source will have. Just like when you turn on personal or guild tribute you see its stored amount decrease, the same is true for power sources. Once a power source is depleted, a new one must be purchased, with currency that is either rewarded after completing TBS missions or by looting the raid coinage from Solteris NPCs.

nduma
12-14-2007, 02:19 PM
I think several of you that are supporting the nerf of the Last Bloods themselves and the gear they are on are overlooking some very important facts.

1) First not everyone that has a last blood has a full suit of them. Some people like myself have chosen certain slots to have cultured gear long before SoF and in other slots I've stayed with other normal armour.

Personal examples: I have chosen to stick to Anguish arms over cultured or DPoB arms for the 6% spell shielding.

I have chosen to stick with Tacvi gloves over Anguish/DPoB/Cultured for the Accu/Combat Effects.

I have not got Cultured Legs because I want the 8% block modifier on my Anguish legs.

All my current gear choices are carefully chosen based on my overall stats, including mod2s.

The next cultural piece I was going to get was Cultured boots for the AC to replace my anguish boots. On these boots I was going to use a caster focus LB since they provide more spell shiedling than a melee one and I lack in that mod.

Tomorrow when the dev team decides to nerf Last Bloods, whether it is to change the AC, HPs or mod2 on them, they will be be throwing out all my carefully made choices with that. This isn't a question of me having a crystal ball and knowing that SoF launch was going to make this incredible gear, it was based on what the stats have been for a couple of years.

2) SoF was released with the feeling from beta that cultural gear was where the design team wanted it to be. As such people have invested and made gear choices as a result of that and switched to some cultural gear with last bloods in them.

With the stats that were available to them, some people have made choices to dorn a new cultural piece of gear which gave them enough of certain stats be it AC, HP or certain mod2 effects, that they've chosen to change out other gear on that basis.

Hypothetical example: A person gets a cultural piece because they know they will now gain 3% shielding and 2% spell shield from it. They know for both these stats they were sitting right at the cap on those stats prior to the cultural. That is something they pride their gear choice on. So now that they have added the cultural piece to their gear, they sit 3% shielding and 2% spell shielding over the cap. They have a mask that is 280hp 3% shielding and 2% spell shield on it. On a raid they see 330 hp/mana mask and they bid on it and then destroy their old mask. Even spend a few thousand PP to move augs around.

Tomorrow: Devs decide they are going to redo the Last Bloods and the stats they give. They are going to change the way the armour sets give stats and the symbols. All those decisions made by people are going to be wiped out.

See the nerf won't be bad if you have a full suit of cultural armour that if they move the stats around the different parts so the overall stats remain identical but, when people have a couple of pieces for certain purposes and they spread the stats around, then they will end up screwing up people big time.

You can complain all you want that the availability of the new augs and new armour make Last Blood comparable to Solteris gear but, the problem does NOT lie in the Last Bloods themselves but, the new armour and the new symbols.

Not really sure what a good solution is going forward as any solution will mean a nerf to someone. Still IMO they should do the following.

Find a way that when a Last Blood is coupled with the Sublime/Elegant armour - the stats of the armour symbol don't give their full power. Don't give Heroic stats and not as many HP/Mana

Can do this for the level 75 Seals so they too when coupled with the level 80 armour they don't give full power.

They simply should have found a way to not allow for LB to fit into the newly cultured stuff and not allowed Exhalted or Sublime symbols to fit into the Elaborate stuff. Wouldn't have this mess that we are in now.

thunderfoot
12-14-2007, 05:22 PM
You can complain all you want that the availability of the new augs and new armour make Last Blood comparable to Solteris gear but, the problem does NOT lie in the Last Bloods themselves but, the new armour and the new symbols.

Not really sure what a good solution is going forward as any solution will mean a nerf to someone. Still IMO they should do the following.

Find a way that when a Last Blood is coupled with the Sublime/Elegant armour - the stats of the armour symbol don't give their full power. Don't give Heroic stats and not as many HP/Mana

Can do this for the level 75 Seals so they too when coupled with the level 80 armour they don't give full power.

They simply should have found a way to not allow for LB to fit into the newly cultured stuff and not allowed Exhalted or Sublime symbols to fit into the Elaborate stuff. Wouldn't have this mess that we are in now.

That is one of the options they are contemplating. Here is what was posted last Friday:


I will start off with changes that we already said would be happening.

We will be evaluating the set of 70 armor + 75 Symbol + Serpent or Sunshard. Those overall stats are higher than our goal.

The intent of Cultural armor is to work in certain sets.

These sets are:

70 armor 70 symbol 70 seal (last blood) let's call this the "Last Blood Set"
70 armor 75 symbol 75 seal(TSS) (Serpent) let's call this the "Serpent Set"
70 armor 75 symbol 75 seal(TBS) (Sunshard) let's call this the "Sunshard Set"
80 armor 80 symbol 80 seal (Faycite) let's call this the "Faycite Set"

We are happy with the Last Blood SET and the Faycite SET, and we feel that the Serpent and Sunshard SET only need a slight adjustment.

BUT some issues are coming about because of the large increase in what we are giving to group level equipment that is making the 75 symbol, 80 armor and 80 symbol artificially inflate the value of the 70 seal (and to a lesser but still there extent, the 75 seal)

We have two options we are looking at, though we have fairly much decided on one. I will go over the one that we are likely to do first.

Overall (with the exception of the slight overdo of the 75 seals) we are satisfied with the way the sets work. The overall stats they give as a complete set fit where we want them too.

What we are going to do is move some of the stats from the seals into the symbol and armor of the set and out of the seals of the set. Overall the SET will be the same, but less of it will be concentrated in the seal. Additionally in some cases some of the stats from the Symbol will be moved to the Armor.

Additionally I am likely to implement a level 75 armor set, so that we can adjust the stats in the 75 symbol and seals to make it not so huge a jump from the 70 (though it will still be a large jump since we are improving group equipment so much overall)

With this adjustment, that does mean that the level 70 GROUP set of armor and symbol will see a large improvement. It should be equivalent to level 70 group armor from TBS when we are done. By moving these stats from the Seal to the symbol that will make the effect of "hanging onto" the level 70 seal less attractive and encourage it to be upgraded as we wish it to be. Additionally it will reduce the effect of the 70 + 75 + LB and 80 + 80 + LB. While they still may exceed some sets of equipment, it will definitely be a step in adjusting the large effect of it.

In some way this will be seen as an "Adjustment Down" of the Last Blood Seals. And well it is, but it is NOT an adjustment down of the Last Blood *SET* of armor. that whole SET will be the same as it is now.

The second option, which we do not like as much (but would be less work for us...) is to enforce an Idea of "sets" using item scripting (which brings a whole other set of issues). A sort of "Set affinity"

For this option the seals would loose value if they are not in there "SET" the stats would decrease the further away from their "set" they are. So if a Last Blood Seal was put in a 80 armor + 80 Symbol set, it would have its stats reduced by a percentage.

The main issue with this is that we would have to wait for a code change (that we are waiting on for jewelry) so that we would not be stuck with even more items that show no stats until they are equipped. So this issue we are having would be in the game longer than we like.

Neither of these changes will be happening until January or later, but the second could take even longer to happen since we need the code change first.

So with that information, our decision is to go with the first choice of just moving the stats around within the set, (and though it was not directly part of it, I think we will have to add a 75 armor set) because with this if we still find that mixing and matching outside of sets is still too much of an issue we can still go with the "set affinity" idea and the adjustments for being out of set could be smaller.

This is all still subject to change, but it is the direction we are going at this point. I will be starting on the research necessary to make the changes very shortly after I send this post.

Where things got messed up at was that there was not a level 75 armor component to the sets, you only have level 70 and 80 armors. The second thing was that placing a 70 raid LB aug into level 80 armor with a level 80 symbol made the armor too good for the tier it was intended on being placed into. Allowing the potency of the LB to decrease if it is placed into level 80 armor or matched up with a level 75 or 80 symbol seems like the best choice. If you use a LB with the level 70 armor and 70 symbol you will not see ANY decrease in it's value or stats.

So players are calling the developers on their statements about this working as intended. But it was an oversight on their part because they did not account for the ingenuity of the playerbase to place 70 raid LBs into the level 80 Armor with level 75 and 80 symbols. At least that is what I think happened from everything I have read from them.

LBs were awarded in level 70 content and should be restricted to being used in 70 Cultural. They are unique because of the slot 12 component and as such, should be bound to level 70 armor. One of the things they are considering is adding a set of level 75 armor, which would be a good thing imo. A 70 LB restricted to only being used in level 70 cultural, 75 Serpent and Sunshards that are limited to only being used in the new 75 cultural, and the Faycites that are level 80 and can only be placed into the level 80 Cultural would solved a lot of this.

ArlakisD
12-14-2007, 10:22 PM
Personally after the initial mistake that Last bloods were. (Sorry 45 AC on an aug like that was a mistake.) They really should just not have put type 12 on the new cultural. It was an interesting idea and yet broken no matter how they approach it. If dead set to continue it I agree with thunderfoot: Make the augs only go into certain types of armor LB 70 TSS/TBS 75 and SoF 80 SOF +1 85 soF +2 90...

Or the way I would have approached it. Make Bazu augs groupable. And remove the stats from both the armor and symbol and the Bazu droppers are in teir 3.


I do find it funny though that people (raiders) want the group armor obliterated so they can keep what they have as is.. But then complain when they see some one "above them trying to nerf them.. "

Arlakis Dreamslayer

Kheibik
12-15-2007, 12:39 AM
I do find it funny though that people (raiders) want the group armor obliterated so they can keep what they have as is.. But then complain when they see some one "above them trying to nerf them.."

We (the raiders) find it funny that it's okay with you for groupable gear to pass our gear in hps and AC, but it's not okay for our gear to even come close to your gear in max 8 slots.

Souljahha
12-15-2007, 08:31 AM
As a raider, I'm glad i have the option of using this armor for now. It frees me up to save and spend my dkp on augs and weps which I need more at this time than armors which I have made on my own. It's no small feat getting to 300 in tradeskills. Furthermore, no one is stopping you from using the same armors if you choose.

This is going to affect a wide variety of the player base. It has good sides and bad sides, lots of pros and cons.

ArlakisD
12-15-2007, 08:34 AM
We (the raiders) find it funny that it's okay with you for groupable gear to pass our gear in hps and AC, but it's not okay for our gear to even come close to your gear in max 8 slots.

Well Let's see even w/o Last blood. Groupable gear HAS passed my Gear in AC.

Look at my gloves vs Cultural...I lose over 16 AC for the mere cost of 70 hp's or so this is assuming NO Last blood + Aug


I'd have this problem as well if gear from velious suddenly gained 200 HP's over what it is supposed to have.
I have not advocated that they nerf this gear but I definitely feel it needed it.
My preferred solution is only letting last bloods work in 70 Cultural. make the new 75 cultural and only let TSS/TBS work there. And yes I feel the Dev's made a mistake. Several in regards to this. I think they failed to realize how fast this stuff would enter the game. and How certain classes would use it.
Yes I think the AC on leather gear needed upping but I think they did it too fast.

Arlakis

Edit: You also fail to note that my recommendation if I was forced to do it was to "nerf" the Armor. But let there be a tier 3 way to Correct the nerfing. By making Bazu's pure groupable. No shyra business for them.

Calo
12-15-2007, 07:35 PM
There's to many issues prob with changing the aug slot to keep the cultural armor + seal as a "set".... Main one being that the armor is not intended to only be used with raid augs; so the whole "set" idea is bullshit... There are plenty of other augs that can be used in the same slot last bloods go into, and calling for specific sets to be used defeats the purpose of a lot of different aspects of the armor.

However I do feel that the 80 cultural and symbol did come to close to solt gear; considering that part of it involves a raid augment though I don't see there being a problem with it being superior to TSS raid armor in at least ac/hp/mana/end.

Archus
12-16-2007, 12:45 PM
So players are calling the developers on their statements about this working as intended. But it was an oversight on their part because they did not account for the ingenuity of the playerbase to place 70 raid LBs into the level 80 Armor with level 75 and 80 symbols. At least that is what I think happened from everything I have read from them.

Um, wrong. That putting LB's into the 80 armor did not take any kind of 'ingenuity'. Only an idiot would NOT put the LB's into slot 12. The dev initial responses about things 'working as intended' were specifically addressing such pieces because who would complain about any other use of the LB's?

But really that is not relevant since the latest post by Ngreth on the monster thread on the SoE boards. I mentioned in one of my previous posts that quoting a dev at any single point in time is useless because they are notorious 'flip-floppers'. Well, they may be ready to flip flop again based on the most recent post.

***

I just want to let people know that we are paying attention to the feedback we are getting from all sides.

While we fully understand that you want numbers and direct answers now, we really believe it will be a bad idea to give out something we are still working on. We are still debating what to do. They range through many of the ideas we have seen on these and other forums, including the "do nothing" idea. We are considering them all. It will just create more bad feelings if we give stats and then change them, even if we say they are not final stats.

When we have something more concrete that we are ready for additional more specific feedback on, we will be sharing it.

***

Note that they are still considering the "do nothing" idea. Let the PM's and posts start flying again... lol

thunderfoot
12-16-2007, 05:12 PM
Um, wrong. That putting LB's into the 80 armor did not take any kind of 'ingenuity'. Only an idiot would NOT put the LB's into slot 12. The dev initial responses about things 'working as intended' were specifically addressing such pieces because who would complain about any other use of the LB's?

But really that is not relevant since the latest post by Ngreth on the monster thread on the SoE boards. I mentioned in one of my previous posts that quoting a dev at any single point in time is useless because they are notorious 'flip-floppers'. Well, they may be ready to flip flop again based on the most recent post.

***

I just want to let people know that we are paying attention to the feedback we are getting from all sides.

While we fully understand that you want numbers and direct answers now, we really believe it will be a bad idea to give out something we are still working on. We are still debating what to do. They range through many of the ideas we have seen on these and other forums, including the "do nothing" idea. We are considering them all. It will just create more bad feelings if we give stats and then change them, even if we say they are not final stats.

When we have something more concrete that we are ready for additional more specific feedback on, we will be sharing it.

***

Note that they are still considering the "do nothing" idea. Let the PM's and posts start flying again... lol

Hehe, a nerf will be incoming. The "do nothing" idea will help appease some over the holidays since Rashere himself posted the other day that he is now on vacation until January. There will be a nerf on these, but it is still being decided what that will be. I am sure they know that even if they reduce these down to where they should be, about 130 less HPs for the total combined item if using LB + 80 Armor + 80 Symbol, that more will cuss it but still stay playing than those who are saying they will leave. Even reduced by 130 HP total, these combinations will equal TSS visible raid amor, a heck of a lot better gear than what was in Demiplane when they won these Last Bloods.

Archus
12-16-2007, 07:08 PM
Yah. I'd agree. I'm expecting a nerf at this point, but just wanted to show that the devs are really trying to play all sides and keep everyone happy. I have a feeling they will end up keeping no one happy. I could live with 100 hps or so per slot lost as long as the AC hit is not too big. I'm in the camp that I'll keep playing no matter how hard the nerf is, but I do know others that aren't so easygoing. We'll find out in January, I guess.

Ughbash
12-17-2007, 09:13 AM
There are thre components to the armor.

The base armor itself even at 80 is not overpowering, it has decent AC and sub par HP.

The Last blood is not overpowering any mroe now then it was when ti was created. Bow I considered for MONKS that it was great armor at teh time, superior to Forgotten artist. IT gave much better AC, but worse Mods.

The sublime and exalted augs are overpowered.

So given this if they should nerf ANYTHING they should nerf the Sublime/exalted, not teh last blood.

Honestly if I loose 100 hp or so per slot I won't really care.

If I loose AC, I will be pissed beyond belief.

Gorkeyah
12-17-2007, 12:44 PM
There are thre components to the armor.

The base armor itself even at 80 is not overpowering, it has decent AC and sub par HP.

The Last blood is not overpowering any mroe now then it was when ti was created. Bow I considered for MONKS that it was great armor at teh time, superior to Forgotten artist. IT gave much better AC, but worse Mods.

The sublime and exalted augs are overpowered.

So given this if they should nerf ANYTHING they should nerf the Sublime/exalted, not teh last blood.

Honestly if I loose 100 hp or so per slot I won't really care.

If I loose AC, I will be pissed beyond belief.

On the other hand, I'm a casual player that will likely never see a last blood aug. I have bought some lvl70 armor with exalted augs. This gets me gear that is similar to, but with a little less stats than, the SoF attunable stuff. Why didn't I get the attunable then? Because a friend can make me the lvl70 stuff for free, and the exalted augs are also in my price range. (I do have some of the less expensive attunable, which is similar to elaborate/exalted.)

So you're saying that my just breaking 9k-ish HP at lvl73 is overpowered? You want them to nerf me by knocking the stats down on exalted symbols?

So... everyone has there point of view on this. People like the ideas that don't involve them personally giving up something they already have. For instance, here's my fix idea. Get rid of the extra aug slot. I don't have anything in them. :)

Ughbash
12-17-2007, 03:41 PM
On the other hand, I'm a casual player that will likely never see a last blood aug. I have bought some lvl70 armor with exalted augs. This gets me gear that is similar to, but with a little less stats than, the SoF attunable stuff. Why didn't I get the attunable then? Because a friend can make me the lvl70 stuff for free, and the exalted augs are also in my price range. (I do have some of the less expensive attunable, which is similar to elaborate/exalted.)

So you're saying that my just breaking 9k-ish HP at lvl73 is overpowered? You want them to nerf me by knocking the stats down on exalted symbols?

So... everyone has there point of view on this. People like the ideas that don't involve them personally giving up something they already have. For instance, here's my fix idea. Get rid of the extra aug slot. I don't have anything in them. :)

No, I would rather they don't nerf ANYONE.

The armor honestly doesn't have room for nerfing Elegant gloves have 70 HP base.

The Last Blood has been in the game for 2 plus years and has LESS HP then the exalted let alone the sublime (though it has AC and better mod2's).

What I said is IF ANYTHING needs to be nerfed (and I don't think it does) the exalted/sublime would be the way to go as it provides the greatest HP differntial AND it has just come into the game.

I also stated earlier that they will never do that, becuase then no raiders would ever want the Faycite shards. The only thign that will make a faycite shard useable (unless they boost them) is using them in conjunction with the Sublime augs. As a result I suspect the last blood wearers such as myself will get the shaft.

Angalus
12-17-2007, 04:43 PM
you cant compare apples to oranges, it has to be apple to apples, so saying slot 12's are better then slot 11's is pointless.

You have to compare Last bloods to Facilites/sunshard/serpants

and

exhalted to sublime


and the fact is jumping from 100hps to over 300hps for slot 11 augs was just idiotic to say the least. If the justifaction was for raid attained gear then a new slot should have been added or specialized raid gear made with just thoose slots compared to the group version. hell maybe even a vendor that converts the TSed armor back and forth. that way you can only use the set you should with the augs you should to be at a groupable level for that gear vs raid level.

the problem is they mixed the two becuase they are lazy, and didnt think it out. but that doesnt change the fact that it is wrong, and just becuase you got it as a mistake doesnt justify keeping it? if the bank accidentally puts 1,000 buck in your bank, well that nice, but they sure as hell will figure it out and take it back, same concept really.

What they should have done is made the sublime augs take a raid drop too from that tier, i mean jfc was that hard to figure out SoE ???

thunderfoot
12-17-2007, 05:45 PM
The problem is they mixed the two becuase they are lazy, and didnt think it out. but that doesnt change the fact that it is wrong, and just becuase you got it as a mistake doesnt justify keeping it? if the bank accidentally puts 1,000 buck in your bank, well that nice, but they sure as hell will figure it out and take it back, same concept really.

What they should have done is made the sublime augs take a raid drop too from that tier, i mean jfc was that hard to figure out SoE ???

This is what happens when your design team does not play the game they develop for. The big winner in all of this is Merloc since this has taken a ton of spotlight off of his poor itemization wizardry.

Athilik
12-17-2007, 06:31 PM
the problem is they mixed the two becuase they are lazy, and didnt think it out. but that doesnt change the fact that it is wrong, and just becuase you got it as a mistake doesnt justify keeping it? if the bank accidentally puts 1,000 buck in your bank, well that nice, but they sure as hell will figure it out and take it back, same concept really.

What they should have done is made the sublime augs take a raid drop too from that tier, i mean jfc was that hard to figure out SoE ???

The devs stated it was intended several times, not a mistake thus it is a bad analogy. In fact I think someone quoted a dev earlier in this thread. There was no error, this is just the devs caving in to the demands on the top guilds. I could care less either way since it won't effect me that much but the reasons for "nerfing" it are lame.

EDIT: Also to Thunderfoot, this is tradeskill crap which means it falls under NGRETH'S category, not Merloc.

Angalus
12-17-2007, 08:09 PM
just becuase something was intended does not mean it was not a mistake, theres a large difference, perhaps the analagy is off but the message isnt.

they screwed up, plain and simple, they didnt think it through and now the backlash is happening.

for people to expect to keep something gotten in such a blatent oversight (in this case it being SoE devs sheer stupidity) is in of itself stupidity....

I say this cause Raid people bitch becuase ALLOT of effort goes into raiding in terms of hours played and whatnot to achieve the gear of that level, it is the tradeoff they make, for groupers to cry that they got to buy that same stuff with just cash and now they cant, is lame...

thunderfoot
12-17-2007, 08:31 PM
The devs stated it was intended several times, not a mistake thus it is a bad analogy. In fact I think someone quoted a dev earlier in this thread. There was no error, this is just the devs caving in to the demands on the top guilds. I could care less either way since it won't effect me that much but the reasons for "nerfing" it are lame.

EDIT: Also to Thunderfoot, this is tradeskill crap which means it falls under NGRETH'S category, not Merloc.

Don't be such a (*&^*&^&*. If after they looked at all the armor sets and saw where this armor was ranking compared to one another, and did not see a problem, they would not have made that announcement. They have flat out admitted that this ended up being a big oversight on their part and that they were not understanding the feedback the players in beta were reporting. That goes back to my point that not a damn one of the developers raid or work at progressing a character these days. It is like a person designing a new car that has never sat behind a wheel. It is a recipe for disaster.

My post about Merloc was that yes, I know damn well he did not work on the Tradeskill armor. Thank you for stating the obvious. My point in bringing him up is that with the focus on the Tradeskill gear, less attention has been given to the the normal gear that so far, seems just like a lot of copy + paste that a monkey could do. Did you even read the story behind why the Cleric Correspondent was temporarily removed because he posted the conversation he had with Merloc, and how freaking clueless Merloc was about simple concepts in priest itemization that have been the standard in this game since its launch?

wycca
12-17-2007, 10:19 PM
Llu overstepped himself and abused a channel he had been given in order to start drama basically.

Mhojho
12-17-2007, 10:25 PM
I say this cause Raid people bitch becuase ALLOT of effort goes into raiding in terms of hours played and whatnot to achieve the gear of that level, it is the tradeoff they make, for groupers to cry that they got to buy that same stuff with just cash and now they cant, is lame...

You do realize that most tradeskillers spend more time in game than the average "i'll join a guild to get ahead" player? To claim the average raider puts in more "time and effort" is complete BS and proves you know nothing about tradeskilling.

The only reason this nerf is going to happen is because the high end raiders got their e-peens stepped upon. Consider (for a second) the advantages that this gear brings to the overall game environment - more players returning, easier guild recruitment, safer "out of guild" grouping opportunities, etc... Guilds can still waggle thier e-peens by what flags they achieve or events they conquer (which is a higher standard), not on how many more hp's or mana their gear has.

To think that anyone is a lesser person due to not having similar gear is short-sighted and incredibly selfish. It only serves to diminish the overall player-base and alienates quality people that don't choose to play this game every day of the week.

An alternate route to quality gear is good for the game... leave it as it is.

Angalus
12-17-2007, 10:41 PM
lol i am well aware of the time investment of TSing and your comments are proof that you are grasping at straws,

Why should ONE, yes ONE person who put in that time be able to equip an army of people with that gear, now if the End results were no drop so everyone had to do it, that would make more sense, but its not.

regardless of anything groupable obtained gear of a new expansion should not equal or better raid gear of just one expansion, especially right out of the gate, now SoF has progression based groupable content where i could understand thoose stats coming close, thats a great idea imo, but for just buying the exp, spending some plat and BAM, thats crazy. you say i know nothing of Tsing lol, you sir clearly know nothing of itemization and game play and balence !!!!!

SoE admited they were wrong, its plane and simple......

Mhojho
12-17-2007, 11:51 PM
See it as you will, but there's no grasping at straws here... I'm focusing on what is likely best for the overall playerbase, not some twisted sense of itemization balance that you feel should separate players that raid from players that group - when clearly, almost all players do both. Afterall, it does take a raid force to loot a last blood in order to create the augment.

And I don't see it as being so plain and simple when you nerf an item that has been in the game for two years. An item that previous raiders had the advantage of and that the dev's explicitely stated they would not change and was working as they had intended - only to now say it was an oversight.

Athilik
12-18-2007, 01:01 AM
I edited it, congrats, you are now a studmuffin!


b) Personal Attacks. You can attack what someone has to say, but you cannot attack the person saying it.

No sir, actually I am not a tool. The devs stated that AFTER a 500+ post long whine by the game's top players. I'd say they were caving in. EDIT: Also having them state it is was intended in response to someone pointing this out to them and then doing a 180 and stating otherwise shouldn't be any more obvious.

Sarkaukar
12-18-2007, 01:40 AM
Nice comparision. Complete sets, no bits and pieces such as comparing wrists/bp/etc but everything.

http://crucible.samanna.net/viewtopic.php?t=5292


Well, it's been quite a long day today and nothing of any sort has happened. So, with my free time today, I've decided to make a spreadsheet with armor from SoF and the new cultural for comparisons to try to plan some sort of upgrade path. I'll list below some of the stuff I've looked at.

Here's my analysis of the shaman cultural armor. All stats include using 8 total pieces (2 wrists).


Elaborate Armor
386 AC 275 HP/Mana/End
0 SVF 42 SVD 42 SVC 42 SVM 0 SVP
0 STR 24 DEX 45 STA 0 CHA 45 WIS 0 INT 24 AGI

Elegant Armor
542 AC 565 HP/Mana/End
0 SVF 106 SVD 106 SVC 106 SVM 0 SVP
53 STR 29 DEX 53 STA 31 CHA 45 WIS 37 INT 32 AGI

Differences
156 AC 290 HP
0 SVF 64 SVD 64 SVC 64 SVM 0 SVP
53 STR 5 DEX 8 STA 31 CHA 0 WIS 37 INT 8 AGI


Eminent Symbol
0 AC 765 HP/Mana/End
47 SVF 47 SVD 47 SVC 47 SVM 47 SVP
98 STR 84 DEX 98 STA 84 CHA 98 WIS 98 INT 84 AGI
90 ATK 12 Regen 6 Mana Regen 8 DS

Exalted Symbol
0 AC 2045 HP/Mana/End
63 SVF 63 SVD 63 SVC 63 SVM 63 SVP
106 STR 92 DEX 106 STA 92 CHA 106 WIS 106 INT 92 AGI
9 CE 2 Shielding 2 Spell Shield 15 Avoid 15 ACC 2 Stun 2 Strike 2 DoT Shield 110 ATK 15 Regen 9 Mana Regen 8 DS

Sublime Symbol
0 AC 2565 HP/Mana/End
95 SVF 95 SVD 95 SVC 95 SVM 95 SVP
122 STR 108 DEX 122 STA 108 CHA 122 WIS 122 INT 108 AGI
19 CE 7 Shielding 7 Spell Shield 25 Avoid 25 ACC 7 Stun 7 Strike 7 DoT Shield 150 ATK 25 Regen 14 Mana Regen 12 DS 9 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR, DEX, STA, CHA, WIS, INT, AGI


Chronal Seal
0 AC 440 HP/Mana/End
40 SVF 40 SVD 40 SVC 40 SVM 40 SVP
8 Spell Shield 40 Avoid 8 Stun

Bazu Seal
240 AC 1440 HP/Mana/End
104 SVF 104 SVD 96 SVC 96 SVM 96 SVP
40 STR 40 DEX 40 STA 40 CHA 40 WIS 40 INT 40 AGI
2 Shielding 14 Spell Shield 56 Avoid 6 ACC 16 Stun 16 DoT Shield 20 ATK 8 Regen 7 Mana Regen

Last Blood
360 AC 1680 HP/Mana/End
128 SVF 128 SVD 120 SVC 120 SVM 120 SVP
56 STR 56 DEX 56 STA 56 CHA 56 WIS 56 INT 56 AGI
2 Shielding 14 Spell Shield 63 Avoid 7 ACC 16 Stun 16 DoT Shield 25 ATK 16 Regen 7 Mana Regen 8 DS

Serpent's Seal
360 AC 2000 HP/Mana/End
128 SVF 128 SVD 128 SVC 128 SVM 128 SVP
64 STR 64 DEX 64 STA 64 CHA 64 WIS 64 INT 64 AGI
24 CE 16 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 72 Avoid 56 ACC 16 Stun 8 Strike 16 DoT Shield 240 ATK 16 Regen 8 Mana Regen 8 DS 1 Clarivoyance

Sunshard Seal
360 AC 2400 HP/Mana/End
128 SVF 128 SVD 128 SVC 128 SVM 128 SVP
72 STR 72 DEX 72 STA 72 CHA 72 WIS 72 INT 72 AGI
32 CE 16 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 72 Avoid 56 ACC 16 Stun 8 Strike 16 DoT Shield 240 ATK 16 Regen 8 Mana Regen 8 DS 16 Clarivoyance

Faycite Seal
360 AC 2800 HP/Mana/End
136 SVF 136 SVD 136 SVC 136 SVM 136 SVP
88 STR 88 DEX 88 STA 88 CHA 88 WIS 88 INT 88 AGI
40 CE 16 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 72 Avoid 56 ACC 16 Stun 16 Strike 16 DoT Shield 280 ATK 16 Regen 8 Mana Regen 8 DS 24 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI


Several Sets of Armor

Elaborate / Eminent / Bazu Seal - DoN Level


626 AC 2480 HP/Mana/End
151 SVF 193 SVD 185 SVC 185 SVM 143 SVP
138 STR 148 DEX 183 STA 124 CHA 183 WIS 138 INT 148 AGI
2 Shielding 14 Spell Shield 56 Avoid 6 ACC 16 Stun 16 DoT Shield 110 ATK 20 Regen 13 Mana Regen 8 DS


Elaborate / Eminent / Last Blood - Demiplane of Blood Level


746 AC 2720 HP/Mana/End
175 SVF 217 SVD 209 SVC 209 SVM 167 SVP
154 STR 164 DEX 199 STA 140 CHA 199 WIS 154 INT 164 AGI
2 Shielding 14 Spell Shield 63 Avoid 7 ACC 16 Stun 16 DoT Shield 115 ATK 28 Regen 13 Mana Regen 16 DS

Elaborate / Eminent / Serpent's Seal - TSS Level


746 AC 3040 HP/Mana/End
175 SVF 217 SVD 217 SVC 217 SVM 175 SVP
162 STR 172 DEX 207 STA 148 CHA 207 WIS 162 INT 172 AGI
24 CE 16 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 72 Avoid 56 ACC 16 Stun 8 Strike 16 DoT Shield 330 ATK 28 Regen 14 Mana Regen 16 DS 1 Clarivoyance

Elaborate / Eminent / Sunshard - TBS Level


746 AC 3440 HP/Mana/End
175 SVF 217 SVD 217 SVC 217 SVM 175 SVP
170 STR 180 DEX 215 STA 156 CHA 215 WIS 170 INT 180 AGI
32 CE 16 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 72 Avoid 56 ACC 16 Stun 8 Strike 16 DoT Shield 330 ATK 28 Regen 14 Mana Regen 16 DS 16 Clarivoyance

Elaborate / Exalted / Last Blood - What I'm currently using


746 AC 4000 HP/Mana/End
191 SVF 223 SVD 225 SVC 225 SVM 183 SVP
162 STR 172 DEX 207 STA 148 CHA 207 WIS 162 INT 172 AGI
9 CE 4 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 78 Avoid 22 ACC 18 Stun 2 Strike 18 DoT Shield 135 ATK 31 Regen 16 Mana Regen 16 DS

Elaborate / Sublime / Last Blood


746 AC 4520 HP/Mana/End
223 SVF 265 SVD 257 SVC 257 SVM 215 SVP
178 STR 188 DEX 223 STA 164 CHA 223 WIS 178 INT 188 AGI
19 CE 9 Shielding 21 Spell Shield 88 Avoid 32 ACC 23 Stun 7 Strike 23 DoT Shield 175 ATK 41 Regen 21 Mana Regen 20 DS 9 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI

Elegant/Exalted/Last Blood


902 AC 4290 HP/Mana/End
191 SVF 297 SVD 289 SVC 289 SVM 183 SVP
215 STR 177 DEX 215 STA 179 CHA 207 WIS 199 INT 180 AGI
9 CE 4 Shielding 16 Spell Shield 78 Avoid 22 ACC 18 Stun 2 Strike 18 DoT Shield 135 ATK 31 Regen 16 Mana Regen 16 DS

Elegant/Sublime/Bazu


782 AC 4570 HP/Mana/End
199 SVF 305 SVD 297 SVC 297 SVM 191 SVP
215 STR 177 DEX 215 STA 179 CHA 207 WIS 199 INT 180 AGI
19 CE 9 Shielding 21 Spell Shield 81 Avoid 31 ACC 23 Stun 7 Strike 23 DoT Shield 170 ATK 33 Regen 21 Mana Regen 12 DS 9 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI

Elegant/Sublime/Last Blood


902 AC 4810 HP/Mana/End
223 SVF 329 SVD 321 SVC 321 SVM 215 SVP
231 STR 193 DEX 231 STA 195 CHA 223 WIS 215 INT 196 AGI
19 CE 9 Shielding 21 Spell Shield 88 Avoid 32 ACC 23 Stun 7 Strike 23 DoT Shield 175 ATK 41 Regen 21 Mana Regen 20 DS 9 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI

Elegant/Sublime/Serpent's Seal


902 AC 5130 HP/Mana/End
223 SVF 329 SVD 329 SVC 329 SVM 223 SVP
239 STR 201 DEX 239 STA 203 CHA 231 WIS 223 INT 204 AGI
43 CE 23 Shielding 23 Spell Shield 97 Avoid 81 ACC 23 Stun 15 Strike 23 DoT Shield 390 ATK 41 Regen 22 Mana Regen 20 DS 10 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI

Elegant/Sublime/Sunshard Seal


902 AC 5530 HP/Mana/End
223 SVF 329 SVD 329 SVC 329 SVM 223 SVP
247 STR 209 DEX 247 STA 211 CHA 239 WIS 231 INT 212 AGI
51 CE 23 Shielding 23 Spell Shield 97 Avoid 81 ACC 23 Stun 15 Strike 23 DoT Shield 390 ATK 41 Regen 22 Mana Regen 20 DS 25 Clarivoyance
8 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI

Elegant/Sublime/Faycite Seal - SoF Cultural Set

902 AC 5930 HP/Mana/End
263 STR 225 DEX 263 STA 227 CHA 255 WIS 247 INT 228 AGI
59 CE 23 Shielding 23 Spell Shield 97 Avoid 81 ACC 23 Stun 23 Strike 23 DoT Shield 430 ATK 41 Regen 22 Mana Regen 20 DS 33 Clarivoyance
16 Heroic STR/DEX/STA/CHA/WIS/INT/AGI


Just to give you a relative indication of the shaman armor, the TBS Solteris Raid armor for the same slots gives (with power source and 20 purity augments added):

With Elemental power source (0.95):

787 AC 5080 HP/Mana/End
528 SVF 528 SVD 528 SVC 528 SVM 528 SVP
429 STR 429 DEX 429 STA 429 CHA 429 WIS 429 INT 429 AGI
30 CE 18 Shielding 20 Spell Shield 55 Avoid 19 Stun 22 DoT Shield 30 Regen 18 Mana Regen 10 DS

With Metal power source (0.95):

915 AC 4225 HP/Mana/End
613 SVF 613 SVD 14 SVC 14 SVM 271 SVP
600 STR 258 DEX 258 STA 258 CHA 258 WIS 258 INT 258 AGI
30 CE 18 Shielding 20 Spell Shield 55 Avoid 19 Stun 22 DoT Shield 30 Regen 18 Mana Regen 10 DS


SoF Tier 2 Raid Armor - Ancient Scaled with power source added
With Elemental power source (0.75):

801 AC 4675 HP/Mana/End
461 SVF 452 SVD 459 SVC 462 SVM 466 SVP
340 STR 341 DEX 361 STA 379 CHA 354 WIS 251 INT 375 AGI
46 CE 19 Shielding 22 Spell Shield 51 Avoid 54 ACC 23 Stun 19 Strike 24 DoT Shield 28 Regen 20 Mana Regen 15 DS 12 Clarivoyance
7 Heroic STR 20 Heroic DEX 8 Heroic STA 7 Heroic CHA 4 Heroic WIS 7 Heroic INT 23 Heroic AGI

With Metal power source (0.75):

902 AC 4000 HP/Mana/End
528 SVF 519 SVD 53 SVC 56 SVM 263 SVP
475 STR 206 DEX 226 STA 244 CHA 219 WIS 116 INT 240 AGI
46 CE 19 Shielding 22 Spell Shield 51 Avoid 54 ACC 23 Stun 19 Strike 24 DoT Shield 28 Regen 20 Mana Regen 15 DS 12 Clarivoyance
7 Heroic STR 20 Heroic DEX 8 Heroic STA 7 Heroic CHA 4 Heroic WIS 7 Heroic INT 23 Heroic AGI

Enjoy!

Ughbash
12-18-2007, 08:19 AM
Why should ONE, yes ONE person who put in that time be able to equip an army of people with that gear, now if the End results were no drop so everyone had to do it, that would make more sense, but its not.


They can't end of story, but nice strawman.

wycca
12-18-2007, 09:30 AM
You do realize that most tradeskillers spend more time in game than the average "i'll join a guild to get ahead" player? To claim the average raider puts in more "time and effort" is complete BS and proves you know nothing about tradeskilling.

For you maybe, for me, getting to 300 in tradeskills was pretty easy. The time I spent on each tradeskill is maybe worth a week of raiding - two at most. Probably less, because the difficulty was considerably less, because it involved clicking buttons and killing some easy mobs over and over. Not to mention the net reward for a week invested was far higher, as was the earning potential.

The hardest part was arguably having the patience to clean out my bank by bothering to run a trader, and tracking down some poor smuck of a druid and enchanter to enchant/imbue crap for me in the thousands.

Well, I suppose the AA took a bit longer to do, but nothing major IMO.

Fulic
12-18-2007, 09:39 AM
Last time I checked Lastbloods were no drop, so the person with it had to raid many hours to earn the dkp to bid on this item. So I would say they worked very hard to earn the right to loot it. So if you say they have not earned the right to have that level of armor then neither have you earn the right to your high level raid armor.

Fulic
Keepers of the Glade
Bertox

Ughbash
12-18-2007, 11:39 AM
For you maybe, for me, getting to 300 in tradeskills was pretty easy. The time I spent on each tradeskill is maybe worth a week of raiding - two at most. Probably less, because the difficulty was considerably less, because it involved clicking buttons and killing some easy mobs over and over. Not to mention the net reward for a week invested was far higher, as was the earning potential.

The hardest part was arguably having the patience to clean out my bank by bothering to run a trader, and tracking down some poor smuck of a druid and enchanter to enchant/imbue crap for me in the thousands.

Well, I suppose the AA took a bit longer to do, but nothing major IMO.


For me teh tradeskillign was quite a bit ahrder, though I suspect my bank is much less then yours. I only have one at 300 and that is JC. For me maxxing the Tradeskill AA was trivial *shrug* its the skill that took me forever.

Archus
12-18-2007, 01:30 PM
lol i am well aware of the time investment of TSing and your comments are proof that you are grasping at straws,

Why should ONE, yes ONE person who put in that time be able to equip an army of people with that gear, now if the End results were no drop so everyone had to do it, that would make more sense, but its not.

regardless of anything groupable obtained gear of a new expansion should not equal or better raid gear of just one expansion, especially right out of the gate, now SoF has progression based groupable content where i could understand thoose stats coming close, thats a great idea imo, but for just buying the exp, spending some plat and BAM, thats crazy. you say i know nothing of Tsing lol, you sir clearly know nothing of itemization and game play and balence !!!!!

SoE admited they were wrong, its plane and simple......

Ughbash already responded to this, but I'll repeat what he said. Stop making a mountain out of a molehill. No one is equipping "an army of people with that gear". Even if the drops were plentiful enough, you are forgetting that LAST BLOODS are needed to make this the 'killer gear' that everyone is whining about. The TS stuff on its own is just ok. There will be few people with this armor AND LAST BLOODS in all 8 slots, let alone 'whole armies' and guilds outfitted that way. This is not going to upset "balance" in any way. I've said it many times on this thread before but it bears repeating, you could outfit an entire guild with this stuff in all 8 slots, and they will STILL not be able to skip TSS and have success in SoF. Take off the tinfoil cap please.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 01:33 PM
it really comes down to them nerfing the wrong things, I dont think they need to nerf the LB they need to nerf the sublimes/exhalted. The problem is they are too lazy to do it so they came up with this "set rebalencing" to give similar results, though it is also fundamentally flawed.

Seems they are taking the lesser of evils approach that suits there unwillingness to put a proper fix into the system.

All this is really is a continuation of a porrly implimented TS armor system, from the start they should have never allowed lesser set componenets to be used in higher sets, but they did. As you may recall LB's when first introduced caused just as much a comotion. The difference now is becuase of a secondary component (the sublimes) the problem has grown much larger and has invaded raid expansion gear to close to the current expansion.

People seem to think you can just join a raid guild, pick up uber item_001 and thats all there is too it. You have obviously never been in a top end guild. The armor this current stuff is treading on to this day takes a guild who raids almost every day, does TSS and TBS (and now the SoF raids), at least 4 hours each of thoose days, mostly in the hopes of gettting ONE item or so a month, maybee 2, and getting pretty much nothing else exp or advancement wise. While the grouper does no such work, can exp to their hearts content and do whatever they want thoose 4 hours x 4-5 days a week in or out of game.

Now take that versus the effort a casual guild can do in getting last bloods (since they draop many places outside of DP now), and then borrowing their friendly guild Tser for 10 mins.

Now given that why would you think raiders would not be mad or an imbalence exists ?

Fulic
12-18-2007, 02:36 PM
People seem to think you can just join a raid guild, pick up uber item_001 and thats all there is too it. YOU have obviously never been in a top end guild. The armor this current stuff is treading on to this day takes a guild who raids almost every day, does TSS and TBS (and now the SoF raids), at least 4 hours each of thoose days, mostly in the hopes of gettting ONE item or so a month, maybee 2, and getting pretty much nothing else exp or advancement wise. While the grouper does no such work, can exp to their hearts content and do whatever they want thoose 4 hours x 4-5 days a week in or out of game.?

Perfect example of the elite, I am better than everyone else and that my time is worth so much more than YOU's time in this game. Last time I checked when elite die you still have to put all your armor back on just like the YOU's.

The casual raiding guild will have to also kill the named who drop the lastbloods and will only see a couple every month to be split between all there force also. In the mean time the high level raiding guild will be looting armor from SoF that is better than the cultural + lastbloods. So the elite still will have better than the YOU's.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 03:02 PM
Perfect example of the elite, I am better than everyone else and that my time is worth so much more than YOU's time in this game. Last time I checked when elite die you still have to put all your armor back on just like the YOU's.

The casual raiding guild will have to also kill the named who drop the lastbloods and will only see a couple every month to be split between all there force also. In the mean time the high level raiding guild will be looting armor from SoF that is better than the cultural + lastbloods. So the elite still will have better than the YOU's.

your not making a whole lot of sense here, whos better then who exactly lol?

and its not a matter of elite, its a matter of time investment. Why should a casual guild who spends half the time raiding a 4 expansion old target get to measure up with a top end guild who raids 2-3 times as much on brand new / 1 expansion old content ? now granted there are some focii that come up short, but thats never really been what this is about...

With that said, I have yet to see even one good argument to as why someone thinks player A who raids 4 expasnion old content casually should match up with Player B who raids double the time on extreemly challenging and new/mostly current content??? People dont join top end raiding guilds becuase its fun fun fun, its work, its wiping over and over again to things (mostly having to make it up as they go, sorry but everyone can find the strats to LB raids anywhere, ever try and find one for TSS, TBS and now SoF ???? good luck), progressing, and in the end yes, its fulfillment becuase the work has paid of so you can be at the top with the best gear and saying you did thoose things. They put in the work and should get the edge, anyone advocating differntly just wants something for free....

and your sorely underestimating how many last bloods or bazus a casual guild can get in a month.... I make mention of bazus becuase even thoose come close in the sets in dispute even though SoE doesnt think so, a few AC and 30 hps isnt exactly that large of a difference to most.

But this is not an argument that can be won, like i said you just want something for free in the end, and theres no disuading people like that.

Even without the last bloods, even without the bazus, you can simply buy DK level gear for yourself now , where as you still had to raid to get anguish level gear before this expansion, wtf are you complaining about that you cant have one more expansion tacked onto it for ? its already a healthy boost for having to do nothing but shop the bazaar ????

If you want the gear but dont want to join a raiding guild, do the group based progression and put some work into it for gods sake, then at least you have earned it more then being able to buy some plat and make it in 30 mins !!! but then again, that would take effort, we cant have that now /shrug

Fulic
12-18-2007, 04:07 PM
your not making a whole lot of sense here, whos better then who exactly lol?

You wrote: "You have obviously never been in a top end guild." I did not know who YOU was in your sentence so I just used your words to refer to whomever you were refering to.


Even without the last bloods, even without the bazus, you can simply buy DK level gear for yourself now , where as you still had to raid to get anguish level gear before this expansion, wtf are you complaining about that you cant have one more expansion tacked onto it for ? its already a healthy boost for having to do nothing but shop the bazaar ????

If you want the gear but dont want to join a raiding guild, do the group based progression and put some work into it for gods sake, then at least you have earned it more then being able to buy some plat and make it in 30 mins !!! but then again, that would take effort, we cant have that now /shrug

You make so many stabs at me. I never said once that I wanted your gear. Every peice of Armor I have I have earned along with my friends and guild. I have all the same augs you do execpt for the 2 lastbloods you have. I do not wear any cultural armor or do I plan on wearing any, but you wear 2. Did you make those yourself or have a guildie make them for you or yet buy them in the bazaar? I have several peices of the new Scratched armor, which I was there pulling and killing the named that dropped them. BP from Bloodmore, Bracer (Hardbottom, Recycler Union) and gloves (Rusty) from Fortress Mechanotus, Helmet and lost the roll on legs from the Robot (the leg named in the robot is a cute little mini mech. dragon). Long story short. I earned ever peice of armor and aug I have. I don't care if John Doe has better armor than me. All I am saying is the lastbloods you have enjoyed and used are now in your eyes to good for everyone else in the game who is not on your level of raiding. Have you thought about what you are saying?

Fulic
Keepers of the Glade
Bertox

Massif
12-18-2007, 04:33 PM
People seem to think you can just join a raid guild, pick up uber item_001 and thats all there is too it. You have obviously never been in a top end guild. The armor this current stuff is treading on to this day takes a guild who raids almost every day, does TSS and TBS (and now the SoF raids), at least 4 hours each of thoose days, mostly in the hopes of gettting ONE item or so a month, maybee 2, and getting pretty much nothing else exp or advancement wise. While the grouper does no such work, can exp to their hearts content and do whatever they want thoose 4 hours x 4-5 days a week in or out of game.

Even if this were true, it'd still get a boo-effing-hoo from me. This is why I quit EQ: the devs listen to those who are obsessed with growing their e-peens at the expense of people who want a little more balance in their lives. It's as if your spam folder was running the development process.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 04:39 PM
im not making stabs at you, your generalizing and so i am responding to it with generalizations.

You do however need to read the entire post!!! nowhere did i say Last blood was broken, I said Sublime was broken. have thought so since the first time i saw the complete set using either LB or bazu....

using the fact that I wear cultural is pretty weak imo, first of all its a complete set of level 70 augs in it, not any of the new stuff, I also only wear 1 of them now becuase all monk gloves suck in comparison. without the LB which i raided for, its useless. The difference is the new stuff without the LB is far from useless, so really requires no raid, or easy ones these days and BAM its super armor, comparing thoose two and the times in which they were/are usefull is misleading to say the least.


once again SoE messed up, they gave far too much to groupable content for too little work and they know it. I applaud you if your working through the group tier stuff and gettting your hard earned upgrades that way, good for you i say thats what they intended, what they didnt intend was for the same person to do absolutley nothing and gain that same and more, and thats whats happening, so they are fixing it, although like i have said, they are fixing it wrong, but hey thats SoE for you.....

Gorkeyah
12-18-2007, 05:08 PM
It's really the combination that's broken, if anything. The exalted/sublime aren't a problem by themselves. They're comparable to other bazaar/easy gear to get. (E.g. one kite class player can get similar stats from gear off named in jewel, and there's the cloak of the elder drake, for instance, that just takes some running around.) I know because that's the kind of gear I have. lol

Hopefully if they nerf anything, it only affects the combinations. That way you wont be pissed because they decided to nerf what you happen to have (LB), and I wont be pissed because they nerf what I happen to have (elaborate/exalted). They'll only piss off those people who have both. ;)

Now if they don't nerf anything, nothing changes except some people maybe lose some bragging rights, but even that would be temporary because I'm sure their raid gear will jump again.

Also, someone else made the point about DPS being forgotten about. Me, for instance, having 250hp gear instead of 100hp gear in slots, means I can solo in HoH ok at lvl73. But with my bazaar weapons, there's still a huge gap in my dps compared to raiders. With servant and lesson running in HoH, I can solo about 12 mobs in 30min. That's not a lot of exp.

Once I saw some high end guild players come into HoH. 2 of them. They trained 10+ mobs onto themselves and killed them all quickly farming TS items.

So there's still a big gap between those ends of the spectrum....

Archus
12-18-2007, 05:45 PM
using the fact that I wear cultural is pretty weak imo, first of all its a complete set of level 70 augs in it, not any of the new stuff, I also only wear 1 of them now becuase all monk gloves suck in comparison. without the LB which i raided for, its useless. The difference is the new stuff without the LB is far from useless, so really requires no raid, or easy ones these days and BAM its super armor, comparing thoose two and the times in which they were/are usefull is misleading to say the least.


once again SoE messed up, they gave far too much to groupable content for too little work and they know it. I applaud you if your working through the group tier stuff and gettting your hard earned upgrades that way, good for you i say thats what they intended, what they didnt intend was for the same person to do absolutley nothing and gain that same and more, and thats whats happening, so they are fixing it, although like i have said, they are fixing it wrong, but hey thats SoE for you.....

I don't know the numbers off the top of my head, but the "new stuff" without LB is not even as good as Scratched Hide and doesn't have any of the focus and less heroic stats. My guess is that people without LBs, but with lots of pp are buying the Scratched Hide and not the "new stuff". Its only good when combined with LB and that can only be obtained in a raid (well, the Solt + crew can probably 1 group some LB droppers, but they don't need them anyways).

And don't take this the wrong way, but it really sounds like you consider high end raiding a job and it does not sound like you're enjoying it anymore. EQ is just a game. If you feel like the hours the casuals or lower end raiders spend on the game is 'more fun' than what you are doing, maybe you should consider taking a break and finding the enjoyment in EQ again. I mean I work full time, the last thing I want to feel like is that logging in to EQ is a second job. Hrmm... but then I forget that some people that play EQ are students or may not work, so maybe having EQ be their job is fine. Well, if thats you, forget what I said, but if you also work full time and consider raiding a second job, then my goodness man, quit the job that isn't paying you any $$. The stress probably isn't worth it.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 06:14 PM
you know in thinking about this, I would have to say this has all come about due to SoE trying to make TSing worth something, when in fact the system is and always has been lame.

None of this TS crap should even exist, Then there wouldnt be a problem, Group progression would get casuals near older raid gear standards and recent/new raid gear would still be decisively better.

Perhaps they should rethink the whole TS system in general, and make other more productive things with TSing then armors which are always going to have problems like this. IT could be anything really, better augs, powersources, ect.

Another point of view to look at i think could be this, who was SoE really bending their wills to??? if you think about it originally it was really the TSers who bitched and complained TSing was useless, they are the true minority who SoE caved to and made this stuff for, then when it impacted other players, they complained, and of course looked like the bad guy.

I am not saying this is necessarily the case, but if you think about it there is merit there.

now setting the whole "crazy" hehehe idea of getting rid of TSing aside, the whole concept for group progression for that level of gear was that it would take time, which is what they wanted for a 1 a year expansion model they are using, problem is they screwed up and let these items be made way too easily and too fast, forgetting about the other 360ish days left in the year after the first 5 were gone and these were flowing....

imo the only real solution is differnt slots for different sets so only the sets can be used together, or a powerdown effect for mismatching sets, however it aint gonna happen cause SoE is 1) too lazy, and 2) too incompitent to code it right.

netura
12-18-2007, 06:21 PM
I am 100% certain that the drop rates of Loams/Marrows/Fluids used for Sublimes etc, has been drastically lowered in many zones, if not removed from the loot table completely (in some zones).

In over 6 hours now at one spot, we haven't seen one of the aforementioned items drop.

The last time we did the same camp for 6+ hours, we saw nearly half a dozen of the drops. The story is the same at some of the other camps that I EXP at extensively.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 06:54 PM
yeah the drop rates were lowered/changed 2 patches ago i believe, all it has done though is driven up the prices. There is always thoose guys who 5 box camps andjust farm away.....

netura
12-18-2007, 07:03 PM
yeah the drop rates were lowered/changed 2 patches ago i believe, all it has done though is driven up the prices. There is always thoose guys who 5 box camps andjust farm away.....
It doesn't matter if you can 5-box or not, if the stuff isn't dropping.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 08:06 PM
sure it does, its allot harder to build a group to go to thoose places and keep them there, then it is to have one all the time to go when and where you want.

the longer your there the more chance to drop, and you dont have to share....

Pliko
12-18-2007, 08:28 PM
sure it does, its allot harder to build a group to go to thoose places and keep them there, then it is to have one all the time to go when and where you want.

the longer your there the more chance to drop, and you dont have to share....

He said, it doesnt matter if the stuff isnt dropping there anymore :P

There are locations where the items used to drop, and no longer drop, so thus 5 boxing or 20 boxing won't pull drops out of a loot table that no longer has them as an option.

Angalus
12-18-2007, 09:40 PM
perhaps i was too coded in my response, i meant to say this one person group can go whereever they choose, thus its super easy to go where it does drop as opoosed to making and keeping a group to go where it drops.

is that better, geesh

BrueFromXev
12-18-2007, 10:28 PM
With that said, I have yet to see even one good argument to as why someone thinks player A who raids 4 expasnion old content casually should match up with Player B who raids double the time on extreemly challenging and new/mostly current content???

Here's your one good reason: Because it makes the game BETTER for 90% of EQ players.

As a whole, I completely respect the top 10% that puts so much effort in to being the best, and I honestly mean that with full sincerity, but for me personally, no thanks. I just want to have fun and enjoy the good company of my guild. If that means getting easy mode EQ to avoid needing to raid like an uber guild to progress, that's fine by me. Heck, that actually sounds pretty good.

It's not like this gear is going to power-progress guilds to uberness. At most, it will shave a month or three of farming off of current TSS/DK guilds that are pushing to be elite guilds themselves. Don't forget that the uberness of the cultural gear is most pronounced on monks since we don't need focii and are a leather class (i.e. we had our target AC levels significantly raised this expansion).

WongLow Qsraider
01-16-2008, 09:12 AM
Your LB loots in DP will make the exact same overall item it made me when combined with the same items that were available to me while I was in DP.

The old comments about LB's being fine were because there was no new cultural - which has existed in the game for what, about 3 weeks?

I don't care what justifications, profanity, and childish tantrums you want to throw out there, but being able to obtain via bazaar and 4-expansion old drops the equivilant of Meldrath's Mansion RAID ARMOR is not balanced. It's not caving to a select group of people, it's realizing something is fucked up.

You farm DP - Great, you can get DP appropriate drops. You don't get a free pass to combine it in the bazaar and bypass 4 expansions and 2 tiers in a new expansion worth of gear progression.

Not really alot of us were not useing full sets of Last Bloods

Those that woulda used 1 or 2 last bloods for specific slots (say hat and arms/boots for monks prior to sof) , will have effectively less stats

Its not as if each last blood for each slot is going to have its stats transfered to that specific slot.

Meaning if you had Boots and just boots for last blood , your gonna get a decrease in HP over what you had in that slot prior to SoF coming out ...as the stats on the last bloods will be Trans'd evenly (scaled up higher for bp/legs i guess) TO ALL THE ARMOR SLOTS.

Weather or not you got butthurt over Cultural baz'd armor being better than some Soltaris drops is a non issue vs Our established raid drops being nerfed INSTEAD <--- of the Symbols/Armor that had over inflated stats to begin with.

We have had our lastbloods for a long time , Why they should be nerfed to help the butthurt of Soltaris + guilds , instead of Symbols/Armor being nerfed AND SINGLE GROUP TIER 4 gear being nerfed ...is beyond my comprehension.

My guild hasn't been in TSS long nor are that far in it , however I wanted the Cultural armor to be nerfed ...AND the single group armor (post Lethar single group armor = gay)

But to be fair SoF raid items woulda needed to be nerfed also
They mudlated EVERY TIER WAY TO FAR , just inorder to give tier 4 single groupers soltaris armor heh.

Single Group gear shouldn't have busted 400hp
Cultural gear With LBs shouldn't have busted 420hp
High End raid gear from SoF shouldn't have busted 700-750hp

They screwed up in all tiers
but they are only nerfing the middle tier ...which is the vast majority of raiders

Groupers and High Enders will still get their gains in gear
Where as we get left in the dust .....between fighting to keep our members out of high end guild recruitment scalping ...and getting new members out of Trash mob zones that drop post TSS gear

we are gonna have a tough time , harder than we already had it. Why join a middle tier guild for 380-460hp loot when u can stay in your family guild and get the same stuff and [better stuff] off trash mobs , or just go ahead and join the high enders once u get your trashmob loots.

Granted my guild was strong prior to SoF so we'll make it just fine regardless what they nerf
alot wont heh

Panthur
01-16-2008, 01:49 PM
Why shouldn't some tradeskill items be actualy WORTH making, worth the time invested to max the skill, get the aas, max the trophy. Tradeskills have been pathetically useless from the start. Making them actualy useful omg! Not everyone raids. Raid gear has better focus and effects, better stats all around. The only thing i dont agree with is the sudden jump from tradeskills being crap, to HOLY CRAP!! There should have been some steps along the way, so that its arrive didn't blow everyone's seat off their chairs.

Tradeskills are a pain in themselves, especialy if you're doing cultural, and all the symbols that go with it. I need more BANK SPACE, or enable us to put large bags into magic bags or something. Each one of those sets hogs up an entire container and there's about 8 sets!

Fastin
01-16-2008, 04:14 PM
So the cultural changes went live this patch?

If so do we have a list of the changes, trying to start planning out gear upgrades.

Gorkeyah
01-16-2008, 04:16 PM
As far as I know, they aren't going live with anything and it's still undecided what they're going to do, if anything.

Fastin
01-18-2008, 05:44 PM
So no word on when/if/or in what state the cultural armor is going to go live? Pretty lame to have people waiting this long for the change. I don't want to invest pp or dkp on solteris if I will be replacing soon after with 80 cult.

No one knows how it will shake out?

80/80/80 cultural going to be better than solteris?

korshatiz123
01-19-2008, 04:17 AM
The current discussion http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=126942#1798470

Basically the current dev proposed change will make Elagant+Sublime+Sunshard (read solteris last blood raid loot)=less hp than the groupable quest ones.

Fastin
01-19-2008, 05:09 AM
The HP changes seem about on par for what I was thinking, but with AC not changing at all what was the point? They are really struggling with this, which means I wont be touching either for a while longer...wish they would just hurry the heck up.

Calo
01-20-2008, 04:11 AM
I think because of the increases to silk and leather ac in SoF that changing the ac might be a little trickier then changing the hp. I'm just speculating here though and haven't done the math to see where everything would fall in that sense, but I'm assuming that a change in ac on the leather and silk armor will give rise to have all armor of those types from DoD on to have it's ac upped (not that it's a bad thing, but I doubt they want to go through and change every leather/silk armor from DoD to Solt).

On top of that I think it would mean that they would have to increase the ac on the level 80 silk and leather cultural since there would be very little increase in ac between 70 > 80 cultural armor.

Again that's all just speculation though, and I'm being hopeful in thinking that they would take those two things into consideration (if something of that nature would be a problem).

Pliko
01-20-2008, 05:18 AM
Im using Sunshard and SE, I have a full suit made now and the minimum required to make 8 pieces would be

8 marrows
8 marrow/spinner/loam

In reality 4 fails on sublimes and 6 fails on armor

puts me at 26 of the expensive tradeskill items... I got them for between 200-400k on my server so it ended up costing right around 8 million plat.

I group and hunt a bit, but have seen very few tradeskill drops recently. Seems like super-nerfing the droprate could take care of this issue for the most part, unless people have a ton of time to farm and really good luck, or are rich

Fastin
01-20-2008, 05:18 PM
I have been looking over the hp/ac of the cultural compared to solteris and I find it pretty depressing. 80 80 LB much less TSS seal just destroys solteris armor. With solteris gear if I want hp I have to sacrifice ac to an insane degree, if I want ac hp goes down the tube...my question is where is the hp/ac tradeoff for cultural...there isn't one and that is a major issue.

Kheibik
01-21-2008, 02:26 AM
The AC disparity with solteris leather gear is more an issue with previous expansions holding back leather AC, than the cultural gear etc. The AC on the groupable leather armor in SoF is better than solteris gear as well. SoF adjusted leather AC quite a bit, to be more in line with plate and chain. The downside is that they didn't go back and adjust previous armor to be more in line with it as well, so SoF armor (group, raid, cultural) all crushes previous raid armor for AC.

Kaliaila
01-22-2008, 07:45 AM
Fastin the AC on LBs when combined with the base armors likely fall into the acceptable range using the new AC paradym.

The real issue is that the Item Dev refused to go back and retro actively improve the Solteris and very end TSS raid armor's AC to be on par with the new AC caps and standards. So all complaints about the AC on any of the Cultural sets is pretty much pointless as even with it having been over powered back when it was new, now it is well within the ranges.

Pliko, what you are saying is exactly what I think is the Dev's are purposely ignoring when addressing these changes. Contrary to the complaints about it, most people don't actually buy plat. If anything most people look down on it.
Even before the changes to the drop rate on Tunare you would have most likely had to have paid a LOT more than 8 million for that many attempts. The exquisite Marrow/Fluids and Porous Loams tend to be sold for around 500+K each, same for completed symbols and armors. Depending on your race and the availability of the appropriate GM TSer I've seen some of the armors going for around 700-800k each.

If they were actually smart they should have just left this alone for at least another 4 months or heck even till next expansion and addressed it THEN.

If they do do anything the ONLY things that should be changed are those that came out with SoF. Any and ALL things that were out before SoF should be left alone.
The problem is not with the old gear or augs it is with the NEW gear and augs.

rigeld
01-22-2008, 08:59 AM
The problem is not with the old gear or augs it is with the NEW gear and old augs.
Fixed. The thing that brought on all the ranting and raving is 80/80/LB.

Rahkim
01-22-2008, 11:24 PM
New gear & new augs was correct. It was only overpowered because of the elegant and sublime/exalted having the stats they have. If they had been weaker, then the combination of the new stuff + LB wouldnt have been "overpowering" (which i dont really believe it is). The LB's were an established item that has been around far too long to blame for this "problem"... the poorly thought out TS'd items however, caused it. There was no "problem" until THEY came into the game.

Sslithx
01-27-2008, 10:33 PM
The issue with taking any AC away from the 80/80/LB combo is that for leather and silk classes there was not a huge jump in ac and hps on the new armor pieces. I think leather helm was like 24ac and 35 hit points higher on the elegant helm from the elaborate helm. So say ya take 15ac and 50hps off the last blood seal and you make upgrading to elegant totally pointless. Any change whatsoever at this point would have to be miniscule to not make all the hard work into getting/creating elegant armor worthwhile. Especially since Ngreth is talking about making a level 75 armor set? Is there really enough ac and hit point wiggle room into making an entire new set of armor when there is only 24ac and 35 hit points different from level 70 to 80?

Kaliaila
01-28-2008, 09:42 AM
Fixed. The thing that brought on all the ranting and raving is 80/80/LB.

No, the thing that brought on all was a few high end warriors getting their e-penii stepped on cause someone who was behind them a lil in hp with old cultural jumped ahead by upgrading to new cultural.

And no their is NOTHING wrong with the OLD augs. They are perfectly fine as is. There are however problems with the NEW armors (Elegant) and augs (Exalted & Sublime).

Every single "reason" brought up for this nerf to even begin to be discussed had already been brought up 8 months ago. Yes, before they had even came up with the stats for the gear all of the current "issues" with the New Cultural Armors had already been brought up. The moment that it was anounced that there would be new cultural the concerns were announced people let the Dev's know, and the dev's assured them that they were taking LBs into account. For that matter one of the solutions offered by players back then was the exact same one as many have brought up again now: Make a Group/Quest-able Type 12 aug to put full armor at the level that it would otherwise have been with just the armor and type 11 aug. The Dev's did not want to do that, and throughout Beta and even after the NDA was lifted they repeatedly and unequivocally stated that the 80/80/LB armor's stats WERE INTENDED. It was only when certain high end raiders started complaining about the armors, that the Dev's started to backpedal. Even some of the raiders, who pre-launch were all for the 80/80/LB being fine as is, flip-flopped so fast it could make many politicians jealous.

I've posted it somewhere else, but since this is Post-SoF All of the ACs are going to be compared using the new AC paradymn established in SoF, where the 80/80/LB isn't anything special. The people who are all pissy about AC need to go bitch at Merloc for refusing to go back to Solteris at the very least and update the AC there to the new paradymn.