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Calo
11-13-2007, 10:51 AM
Just saw this in the patch msg -

- AC Mitigation Improvements: We modified the AC Caps and over-cap returns for mitigation for all classes to bring them more in line with their intended ability to mitigate damage. Warriors, Paladins, Shadowknights, Clerics, and Monks received a minor increase in their mitigation ability. Rangers, Bards, Rogues, Shaman, Beastlords, and Berserkers received a moderate increase in their mitigation ability. Druids, Necromancers, Wizards, Enchanters, and Magicians received a considerable increase in their mitigation ability.


Was this change in beta as well?

I'm curious to where this puts us up against rangers now....

With the changes.. well lack of changes we seem to be seeing in SoF in terms of dps, I was hopeful of the monk class at least having an advantage still in terms of tanking over rangers since we lost our dps advantages...

If this did what I think it did then it might be the final nail in the coffin for myself with EQ. This is seriously annoying to be a pure melee class and being second in every area to hybrid melee classes... It really seems like we are the actual hybrid class.

I am really hoping that the content in SoF actually requires splitting of some kind (even though in most players eyes we are second even in that area).

Nedrom
11-13-2007, 10:53 AM
im going to reparse my monk vs ranger parses that I have stickied on the eqoutrider forums, until then, i wont have an answer for you

thunderfoot
11-20-2007, 12:55 PM
I am concerned that we have seen the value of our pre-SOF gear reduced. I started thinking about this last week when I saw the first tier 2 group leather boots drop. This is completely related to the AC on the tier 2 group gear, and if this has been factored into the tuning of SOF we are in for a rough ride. Here is why.

I will compare this Tier2 Group armor's AC to TSS raid gear. I know my gear is much better in terms of HPs but the AC has be concerned.

Tier 2 group leather AC:

Head 48
Chest 81
Wrists 37
Legs 58
Hands 43
Boots 45
Arms 47

TSS raid gear Monk Leather AC:

Head 40
Chest 76
Wrists 34
Legs 52
Hands 39
Boots 37
Arms 41

This has me extremely concerned because this clearly shows that AC seems to have been changed for the leather classes, and while previous raid gear still maintains its lead in HPs, Focus and Secondary Mods, the AC on prior raid gear is less than this new attunable, and fairly easily obtainable group gear.

Souljahha
11-20-2007, 01:34 PM
I don't believe any of us were aware of the ac change in beta. I have noticed an incredible increase in my tanking ability since SoF went live too. But I also have 5 upgrades since Soul was copied over.

That aside, I hope to have sublime gloves with sublime augment today and LB with jonas aug. The ac hasn't ncreased but clearly the gm armor is the way to go in ac if the hp can match. What i saw was roughly 800 hp gear from the sublime maxxed. I'll be changing out my TSS armors and doubt I'll take much in Solteris at this point. The exquisite marrow drops are very rare will take some time to have full set at the very least. TSS last blood is roughly 250 hp and Solteris is 300 Hp. I know exalted stuff is going around 150k and I won't sell sublime for less i was thinking around 200-250k so not easily acquirable. I'll be doing combines for guildies all day until i run out of supplies. I have seen dodge 4 mod on new last bloods, yet tss is dodge 5 if i recall. So that's a whole topic to play with too. Better to gain 40ac or the extra focus? Think i'd lean to ac and hp. New LB's have no ac increase, but they have > hp & mods too.

The first combine on gloves was 466 triv think i did 1:2 fail and got 4 sublime glove templates ready. The armor combine is a little lower, but still very high 420's +.

With the change I'm looking at if I need to go camp and swap some augs for ac ones now. I'm really having no trouble tanking tier 2 trash and offtanking tier 3 is pushing it for my gear atm.

That aside, these drops are going to save us months of farming and gearing up apps. It should also open up many more skilled players the chance to gear up and app to the higher guilds. The downside is that there will be more complete morons apping too, but that's really more involved with screening out those folks during app.

That is tier 1 or 2 loot, you should see the tier 3. I been rolling for upgrades... and I know others here been camping those same mobs so not discussing any further.

Maereax
11-20-2007, 02:37 PM
So, they actually put more AC on attunable, 1 groupable mob drops, then on their previous expansions raid drops, that only 3-4 guilds per server can get? like serriously? someone needs to be fired... or banished to a desert island, or something of the sort...

thunderfoot
11-20-2007, 02:50 PM
So, they actually put more AC on attunable, 1 groupable mob drops, then on their previous expansions raid drops, that only 3-4 guilds per server can get? like serriously? someone needs to be fired... or banished to a desert island, or something of the sort...

Yes, they did exactly that. Teir 3 and Tier 4 group armor will have even higher levels of inflated AC relative to TSS and TBS raid gear AC.

Calo
11-20-2007, 02:52 PM
I have a feeling that something was changed with avoidance; or something of that nature. I don't have anyway to parse, but I can tell that I am definitely taking a lot more hits in general then I was before SoF; and this is with mobs besides the SoF ones. Our mitigation might be better, but I have a feeling that something was lowered with avoidance (and this might be something that affected all classes not just monks, but since we rely on avoidance more while tanking we will see the effects of an avoidance change more then others).

Before SoF I would regularly see 2 - 4 rounds without taking any hits at all, and I would rarely see consecutive rounds of being hit... Now however it's the norm to be hit just about every round, and it's rare to see 2 - 4 rounds without any hit's landing.

Maereax
11-20-2007, 03:05 PM
So, now, they #@%$ed us raiders out of our top hp/ac gear, AND nerfed us tanking?


wow... thats bs dude

Crouching
11-20-2007, 04:08 PM
I think what you are seeing Calo is the mobs having strikethrough and it bypassing your normal block/riposte rate. I've also got a gut feeling mobs are hitting faster than they were SoF or it could just be my AC is much lower by comparison than pre-SoF.

Ughbash
11-20-2007, 04:15 PM
The high AC on group mobs is encouraging.

Perhaps they are finally realizing how bad they screwed us over with our AC. Would you prefer the alternative of they kept the AC in new expansion nerfed? Sure the Grouper now gets a BP that is more AC then my BP off Beltron but who cares. Once we get the RAID gear from new expansion it will be more AC then it would be if they kept are AC down. If Raid AC is based off an increase over teh group gear from same expansion rather then an increase over the previous raids this is going to be a great increase.

This is IMHO one of the positives of the Expansion.

thunderfoot
11-20-2007, 04:29 PM
The high AC on group mobs is encouraging.

Perhaps they are finally realizing how bad they screwed us over with our AC. Would you prefer the alternative of they kept the AC in new expansion nerfed? Sure the Grouper now gets a BP that is more AC then my BP off Beltron but who cares. Once we get the RAID gear from new expansion it will be more AC then it would be if they kept are AC down. If Raid AC is based off an increase over teh group gear from same expansion rather then an increase over the previous raids this is going to be a great increase.

This is IMHO one of the positives of the Expansion.

I do not think it is that simple because the other classes did not see this take place. If content in SOF is designed for the AC values of the group gear then Monks and the other two leather classes just saw a huge nerf in their TSS and TBS raid gear solely based on its AC value. Also this will affect us all if, like I suspect, the mitigation tables were changed to reflect the AC of this new gear.

I posted this over on EQLIVE and will post it here again. Other classes did not see AC increased that placed group gear AC above their TSS raid gear AC.

Here is what I posted:

Other armor types are not affected by this inflation. If you consider the TSS raid Plate armor then you can see the comparison to tier 2 SOF group armor AC.

TSS Plate Armor Raid AC:

Chest 156
Legs 112
Arms 88
Wrists 70
Head 90
Feet 83


SOF Tier 2 Group Plate armor AC:

Chest 115
Legs 83
Arms 67
Wrists 53
Head 69
Feet 64

Chain armor was also not affected.

TSS Raid Chain Armor AC:

Chest 129
Legs 88
Arms 71
Wrists 54
Head 70
Feet 64

SOF Tier 2 Group Chain Armor AC:

Chest 98
Legs 71
Arms 57
Wrists 45
Head 59
Feet 54

Souljahha
11-20-2007, 05:20 PM
330 hp on my new sublime glove aug and 315 on bracer. downtime before i could make new gloves. but my old gloves were at 83 ac with jonas aug. Doubt I'll have the materials to make much else right now for a few. I'll update when I get it wrapped up. But from what I see GM is going > for awhile at least or a very feasible option on many slots.

Calo
11-20-2007, 06:51 PM
I think what you are seeing Calo is the mobs having strikethrough and it bypassing your normal block/riposte rate. I've also got a gut feeling mobs are hitting faster than they were SoF or it could just be my AC is much lower by comparison than pre-SoF.

That's basically what I thought it was as well... but it still doesn't feel like that's the only factor. Even looking at other classes tanking on the same level it still seems that we are taking more hits... Which maybe that may still be the end result of the strikethrough changes.

I'm only assuming this but how I figure strikethrough to work is that it bypasses things like block/reposte/parry; on average we block/reposte more then other classes. So if we block/reposte more then that means the mobs have more chances to strikethrough and hit.... which would mean our ability to avoid damage in terms of blocking and repostes has actually become a liability for us when it comes to tanking.

I could be way off in this assumption, but I really think this might be the case.

Tzaj
11-20-2007, 10:17 PM
The problem with this thread, and the one in EQLive is that part of the picture is being touted as a issue, when in fact it isn't an issue at all when looked as a whole. But there are indeed other issuse I saw when I started looking and talking about it.

First off, I box alts, and as they are not raid gear twinks as a rule I see the basic pattern as being expansions will bring my raid monk 21 slots of upgrades not just the visible ones but invisible upgrades too. The invisible upgrades are far superior to group content, ie my monk has a AC45 ear, now what group mob drops a ear ring with that AC?

Now SoF is as it is, the mobs seem to be hitting more often for max, and so the devs boosted a few visible AC numbers, but the invisible stuff is still low AC for group content. So group toons will at least survive in SoF now. And this is the part of the picture you are talking about rather than acknowledging the other upgrade slots play a role too.

However, my issue is with the low AC on feet, and that combat bonus for AC on feet. Seriously it looks stupid that a TSS warrior can walk into the top tier of it with ease, and for a monk the only route I see is via trade skill items. Also a group monk with the new AC boots will do more damage than a basic TSS raid monk. This needs a bit of fixing for sure.

Mris
11-20-2007, 10:47 PM
Not having the expansion yet, I haven't seen any of the no trade stuff, but the attunable gear makes me sad. It doesn't appear to be rare, considering how often I see it linked by people who just saw it drop, and it blows what our guild is wearing out of the water. This is a guild that farms anguish and is learning demi. I'm worried that this will completely kill all desire to progress through demi, or PoR. Or TSS/TBS for that matter, now that I see higher raiders thoughts on the matter.

Add on top of that the fact that a lot of people aren't getting the expansion right away, and you have a new problem: half a raid force who can take TSS and TBS raids with ease, and get few upgrades, and another half who can't even survive said raids. Or that half would be completely left out when they advance to SoF. (Which hopefully wouldn't happen all that soon, but you never know...) That would break your raid force in half, to lower-raid capable 70-75s, and high-end viable 80s.

The jury is still out. And likely will be, until I either get the expansion, or it's declared total crap and re-itemized.

Ughbash
11-21-2007, 09:17 AM
Thudnerfoot,

Until we see what the AC si on teh RAID version of the armor we can't maek any real judgements. Now I personally avoided MOST (Chest being the exception) of the TSS armor because its AC sucked. If they are now realizing that our AC is too low and are takign steps to fix it I think this is great. Other classes (plate and chain) had great AC from TSS and might not need the upgrade as much as we do.

I am afraid that what you will wind up doing is getting the group gear nerfed rather then raising the quality of the TSS+ raid gear (which won't happen). And if the group gear gets nerfed expect the Raid gear to get its AC nerfed also. The gruop gear has great AC but is lackig in HP and Mod2 and resists so I don't see it as threatening raid gear. I see it as great for the groupers and hope that it will be even better for the raiders. So please don't complain when they give something good to the groupers even if one small part of the armor (not the armor as a whole) is better then what some raiders have.

Scratched Hide Tunic:

AC 81 Hp 330 shielding 1 avoidance 3 other non tanking mod 2's 75 in total resists.

Osh`Vir`s Whisperwind Tunic

AC 76 Hp 475 Sheilding 3 Avoidance 30 other non tanking mod 2's, 125 in total resists, Benefical 2 slot dispel, focus that reduces time of inpenetrable.


Trust me even as an AC whore there is no way I would swap out the TSS BP for the new gruop one. Soltersi BP is even better then TSS.

Now I am hoping that the RAID version of the BP may have 120+ ac which we would not have seen for a while at our current expnasion rate.

Edit: I see it as SOE realized they had been screwing monks on AC and are now trying to give us back some which is a good thing. As melee we need AC, now SOE is giving us what we need.

thunderfoot
11-21-2007, 11:30 AM
Ughbash,

I disagree. We can make judgments because it is broken if the gear you can now purchase in the bazaar that has been farmed by bot groups has better AC than the armor you gain from molds out of Frostcrypt and Ashengate. Just wait until the tier 3 and 4 group leather starts showing up and passes Solteris leather in AC.

It is broken and it should be fixed. As others have posted, is it right for a Beastlord or Monk buying a tier 2 boot being able to kick harder than a TSS raid Monk or Beastlord?

I am more optimistic about their ability to increase the AC on Demiplane and above leather armor than others are I guess.

Nedrom
11-21-2007, 11:40 AM
I'm going to try to get parsing done soon, I've just been too lazy to do it.

Ughbash
11-21-2007, 06:06 PM
Thunderfoot,

We disagree, I think with every other class screaming about nerfing monks, we should stop trying to nerf ourselves. If AC is that important, go back to Last blood from Demi (or serpernts from TSS) or whatever Solteris drops instead of Serpents. Those easily out AC the new armor (I know I wear them) other then legs and chest.

I think that TSS is signifgantly better then the group stuff however if you feel that the group stuff is so good perhaps you should trade in your TSS gear for it. What should not be done is try to get it nerfed. We got nerfed enough this expansion.

Last blood (or higher) +sublime augs +Cultural armor blows those drops out of the water by a considerable margin.

Tzaj
11-21-2007, 08:51 PM
The legs I saw today off a T2 SoF raid would indeed be ? better than TSS with a TBS PS. But it had fero 6, the mind boggles.

Athilik
11-21-2007, 10:06 PM
Ughbash,

I disagree. We can make judgments because it is broken if the gear you can now purchase in the bazaar that has been farmed by bot groups has better AC than the armor you gain from molds out of Frostcrypt and Ashengate. Just wait until the tier 3 and 4 group leather starts showing up and passes Solteris leather in AC.

It is broken and it should be fixed. As others have posted, is it right for a Beastlord or Monk buying a tier 2 boot being able to kick harder than a TSS raid Monk or Beastlord?

I am more optimistic about their ability to increase the AC on Demiplane and above leather armor than others are I guess.

Not to be rude, but this is the same argument that is trying to be used against the new cultural. "Omg groupable gear beats my year+ old raid equipment." It was stated that these changes were intentional. Progress is a good thing, ESPECIALLY when it helps those most in need of it: the casual player. It makes little sense to nerf our own class just so you can 'kick sand in the casual player's face.'

From my point of view however, I think these changes are well in line considering we need an AC boost and groupable nameds are hitting harder than ever. I'd rather see any bone throne to us stay within our grasp and not get taken away again.

P.S. TSS/Solteris raiders are more in trouble from the raid gear than they are from any casual piece of gear~:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3928/strangesourcezj0.png

thunderfoot
11-21-2007, 10:42 PM
Not to be rude, but this is the same argument that is trying to be used against the new cultural. "Omg groupable gear beats my year+ old raid equipment." It was stated that these changes were intentional. Progress is a good thing, ESPECIALLY when it helps those most in need of it: the casual player. It makes little sense to nerf our own class just so you can 'kick sand in the casual player's face.'

From my point of view however, I think these changes are well in line considering we need an AC boost and groupable nameds are hitting harder than ever. I'd rather see any bone throne to us stay within our grasp and not get taken away again.

P.S. TSS/Solteris raiders are more in trouble from the raid gear than they are from any casual piece of gear~:

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/3928/strangesourcezj0.png

I disagree. Last Bloods are not groupable augs. So the whole argument about Cultural group gear being so much better is not a valid comparison.

Ughbash
11-22-2007, 05:54 PM
If you think the new groupable gear is better then your raid gear, try for the groupable gear.

Currently the 160 AC Bp for raiders seems to be signifigantly better then the 80 some odd AC bp for groupers.

And while last blood may not be groupable (yet) Bazu is so cultural plus bazu still tops raid gear from solteris for AC.

I wonder how long til a group from one of the Solteris farming guilds manages to kill a LB dropper in Sverag. I suspect it will be this expansion so this expansion LB will techincally become groupable (though not by groupers).

thunderfoot
11-22-2007, 07:16 PM
Wny is it so hard for some to admit the obvious and say that TSS, TBS, Demiplane and POR leather armor is currently broken when it comes to AC? If new levels of AC have been introduced to the leather classes in this expansion, it screws up itemization from the last few expansions. CHAIN AND PLATE did not see this adjustment in AC. Why come here and try and justify a broken system? It makes no sense. You can present your points about comparing groupable leather in SOF to raid level leather in SOF but that still fails to justify the low levels of AC on previous raid and group armor. If you want to make a point that the new AC levels on AC are a good thing then by all means do so. But do not insult anyone's intelligences and deny that this new system screws every piece of leather armor prior to SOF, both group leather and raid leather.

Kheibik
11-22-2007, 07:34 PM
Thunder,

It's pretty simple really and probably involves two factors:

1) They increased everyone's overcap mitigation returns. It seems pretty reasonable that our mitigation returns were holding back leather AC for a while, as we were already mitigating better than chain classes. If the AC on our gear was even higher, we would be mitigating way beyond the levels the designers anticipated. This is the reason that some of us stacked our gear with LB drops so that we do/did mitigate beyond expectations. However, with changes to other classes' returns, they can increase our AC and keep us mitigating about where we were in relation to other classes.

2) Mob attack changed for SoF, thereby making AC even more important. Now, if they didn't increase leather AC (which helps bsts and druids as well) then more than likely, even with the mitigation increases) they would be obliterated if they got aggro. I would imagine that silk armor AC will be showing a nice increase as well. The purpose of the mitigation changes were to make leather/silk/chain less squishy by decreasing the mitigation disparity between tank classes and non-tank classes, for that to happen both returns needed to be increased and AC on gear.

Now anyone who has been playing this game for a while will notice that Sony rarely goes back and retunes items at all levels of content. They will occasionally retune items that were grossly out of tune, and at best seem to do it for an expansion or so behind. Even the rogue dagger changes, which should have been changed at pretty much all levels of content, were only changed for TSS forward. I can't imagine Sony going back and retuning leather drops for AC for all the expansions back through Gates or PoP. Instead they are most likely going to just makes the changes prospective, as they are probably changed with SoF content in mind. Is it lame that TSS armor has less AC than SoF group armor? Sure, but I don't want to see the SoF armor nerfed when monks are finally going to get decent AC on armor (outside of cultural gear). You should realize that Sony won't retuned TSS armor, so if the outcry over the group armor is so bad all they will do is nerf SoF armor and most likely at all levels of play (raid and group). Besides, I'm sure you'll be in TBS/SoF raid armor soon enough. Just wait it out =)

Athilik
11-22-2007, 07:41 PM
The reason it didn't happen is because plate and chain were already significantly ahead of leather and silk for AC. They added a large increase to AC returns for all but tanks and monks meaning the extra AC chain still has is even more valuable than before. Tanks still see a boost comparable to what monks got and the little AC silk has does count. Yes, the older stuff lacked AC, but for the content is was meant for it is perfectly fine. I doubt they made TSS gear with SoF in mind, therefor the gear is not 'broken' because the AC was fine for when it was made.

thunderfoot
11-22-2007, 08:32 PM
The reason it didn't happen is because plate and chain were already significantly ahead of leather and silk for AC. They added a large increase to AC returns for all but tanks and monks meaning the extra AC chain still has is even more valuable than before. Tanks still see a boost comparable to what monks got and the little AC silk has does count. Yes, the older stuff lacked AC, but for the content is was meant for it is perfectly fine. I doubt they made TSS gear with SoF in mind, therefor the gear is not 'broken' because the AC was fine for when it was made.

Your argument makes no sense because they did not make SOF Chain and Plate group armor superior in AC to the TSS Chain and Plate raid armor. If all armor types saw this increase then your argument would hold merit. As it is, your's is a narrow view that ignores the obvious.

I eagerly await the results of the parsing. My gut feeling is that our mitigation was cut back to account for this higher level of obtainable AC, since going in we already were mitigating pretty damned well. When they posted the patch notes about monks seeing a slight increase in mitigation I bet that was based on this new armor, which leaves every piece of gear prior to SOF handicapped.

Athilik
11-22-2007, 09:03 PM
My argument was not in reference to group VS. raid, at all. Also, our mitigation was not cut back; read the patch notes. Leather needed an AC increase, that was it. They compensated for this increase by providing chain classes a huge boost to AC returns, tanks classes a boost comparable to ours and silk classes an enormous boost to AC return; ALSO in the patch notes.

EDIT: My first sentence doesn't really clarify my argument at all. What I mean is it is balancing across the board. For example, leather is where it should be relative to other archetypes in the groupable or raidable category for this expansion, while at the same time sony compensates this dramatic increase by boosting other classes AC returns appropriately.

Tzaj
11-23-2007, 10:12 AM
I would like to whine that it sucks to be hit for 2k by light blue cons. Here is my magelo to help others see what level I'm at. http://eq.magelo.com/profile/48973 Decent TSS level of defence I'd say, but SoF feels nearly as bad as when PoP came out. OK PoP was a hell of a lot worse and I was in casual gear back then; at least I can box in SoF better than I could in PoP, but thats me in raid gear. God knows how shit it is to be a group casual or CoA monk in SoF but I bet its not great right now.

Brothump
11-23-2007, 02:37 PM
I have been reading this site for 5 years, and this is my first post.

Never did I think that I would read about people complaining that the gear is to good and to easy to get for to many people.

These are the politics of Envy.

Mudflation has been common from PoP on, with Raid types getting better and better Twink gear for alts.

Relax and have some fun, that is why we play the game, For fun.

Brothump, Monk, Bertox

Timbrewuf
11-23-2007, 03:00 PM
Well speaking as casual monk in TBS katta and some COA gear I cannot realistically tank in SoF at all.

tasthoggua
11-23-2007, 03:53 PM
if you want ac dont go class gear route, just stick with cultural+lb's and their new counterparts and most definitely use ac augs over hp+mod2 ones, you wont even take a hit on hp with the new symbols availible

*edit* sorry for the fucked up name, should be tsathoggua, but was slightly drunk while signing up ;p

Ughbash
11-23-2007, 06:39 PM
The SoF armor is not broken AC, its all the armor from PoP on that was broken.

When they nerfed our AC at the end of SoL it nerfed us two ways. First it made are Softcap so ridiculously low all that mattered was hp, ac didn't mean didly. But secondly they lowered the AC value of our armor to ridiculously low amounts. When hte mitigation nerf wa repealed in OOW only one of the nerfs was repealed, and that was the softcap and return over cap. Our AC was still far to low.

Now they are correcting hte second nerf.

thunderfoot
11-23-2007, 09:00 PM
I have been reading this site for 5 years, and this is my first post.

Never did I think that I would read about people complaining that the gear is to good and to easy to get for to many people.

These are the politics of Envy.

Mudflation has been common from PoP on, with Raid types getting better and better Twink gear for alts.

Relax and have some fun, that is why we play the game, For fun.

Brothump, Monk, Bertox

Since I seem to be the only one with an issue with this armor, let me make my point very clear. I am not against the new levels of AC on SOF gear. OK!!! To those that think I am calling for a nerf of this new gear do you understand that point? If you read through my posts I never once asked that the new gear should have its AC reduced. What I have been advocating is that the leather armor from TSS and TBS, and maybe DOD and POR should be reevaluated for AC and positive adjustments should be made where needed.

You mention mudflation but have no clue what you are talking about. Twink gear for alts never passed the AC value that their mains were wearing.

Yes, we play for fun. But it is a lot of time invested to gain gear upgrades and when an expansion comes out that only serves to highlight how broken your current gear is in one area, and how the SOE dev team do the dog and pony show of "we are spending more time fixing bugs", there needs to be a serious reevaluation of gear. We have seen a retuning of weapons, why not a reevaluation of the armor to see if leather from the last two expansions is where it should be AC wise.

Kheibik
11-23-2007, 11:22 PM
Sony won't retune all the AC for the armor from DoD+. I'd be shocked if they did it for even TBS. They would probably argue the gear was tuned for the content at the time and doesn't need an increase and that the AC increases are only needed for SoF and, as such, SoF armor has increased AC.

Brothump
11-24-2007, 03:26 AM
LOL,

Mudflation= beter gear more easily gotten at a Lower lvl.

The Raid types twinking their alts with better gear than the common player can hope to get was another issue.

Plenty of High End raid guild people on Bertox siting in camps in the new zones getting gear for who ever, competing directly with casual players for the same gear.

Or Maybe they just want the Dropable/sellable gear like the 24 damage 20 delay fists dropped by the easy to kill mobs in Dragonscale.

We play the Game according to what rules Sony decides to put into the game.

Stop whining, you want better gear? go get it.

Do not complain that to good of gear is now to easy to get for the common player.

My first year of PoP was my first year in the game, I played 5 Months with a Raiding guild(Prophecy) and beat the endgame(Quarm) about the time Gates was released.

Then I slowed down to enjoy the game.

I still wear several slots of the gear I got at that time, I play for fun, for the simple joy of playing with people I like to play with.

Big Time Raider, Go out and get the new Big Time Raid gear, do not complain about what the little people are doing.

thunderfoot
11-24-2007, 12:14 PM
Brothump,

Reading comprehension must be lacking where you are at if you read what I posted and then replied with that dribble. I will go out and get the new SOF raid gear. And I will say this one more time so that maybe you can comprehend what I am saying. I do not have an issue with the AC on the new gear. Does that make any sense or will I have to state that again for you so you can maybe, eventually get it? The issue I have is that now, since SOE has raised the bar of what they believe to be acceptable levels of AC for group/raid leather armor, they have thrown previous expansions out of balance. It was only one year ago that TSS was being explored and guilds across the servers were starting to break into and beat Ashengate and Frostcrypt. Any sane player or developer should see that the gear coming out of these raids should not be outclasses in AC by gear that you can buy or two box just one year later.

You say stop whining and go out and get the better gear. Don't be so clueless. TSS raid gear is better than this group shit in every way but AC. AC on the little over 1 year old raid gear and Solteris leather gear needs to be increased.

I should stop trying to debate simple concepts with a simpleton.

Nedrom
11-24-2007, 10:09 PM
running the monk test on test server tonight, level 75, same gear as the parse link'd below, but block and dodge skills were tweaked and ac is slightly more

will redo the ranger one too

i'm only doing the test with max aa, just to see final results

http://www.eqoutrider.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2841

Brothump
11-25-2007, 12:55 AM
Well, Opinions do vary.

After reading this for 5 years your post simply shocked me into response.

Sounds like simple whining, then a bit of name calling besides?

Get a Grip, relax, go out and play with the people you most enjoy playing with and have some fun.

We do not get to choose the rules of the game, the rules are inforced upon us by Sony.

Show some flexability and adapt to the changes in the game, Remember that we play for fun and we pay to play, I am sorry you are not having as much fun as you would like.

Brothump, Monk Bertox

Nedrom
11-25-2007, 12:26 PM
PRE SOF

cs18 & ca18 & pe -> max 1265, min 248, avg total hit 583.60, 49662 hits, 64603 misses
28.79% hits, 37.45% misses, 20.83% blocks, 8.13% dodge, 4.81% riposte
251.10 avg bash, 251.88 avg kick, 597.56 avg punch

http://replicators.net/monk_cs18_ca18_pe.jpg
http://replicators.net/monk_cs18_ca18_pe_details.jpg


POST SOF

cs18 & ca18 & pe -> max 1265, min 248, avg total hit 574.50, 117876 hits, 165447 misses
25.27% hits, 35.46% misses, 23.98% blocks, 9.93% dodge, 5.36% riposte
248 avg bash, 261.23 avg kick, 587.63 avg punch

http://replicators.net/monk_cs18_ca18_pe_post_sof.jpg
http://replicators.net/monk_cs18_ca18_pe_details_post_sof.jpg

there may or may not have been changes to arena dummies, but from what i saw in beta they were never updated

same gear was worn, except there were innate skill increases to both dodge and block

monk is still level 75, i skilled up to max dodge/block first, no buffs and has improved dodge 5, improved block 5 and a block 8% mod

Kheibik
11-25-2007, 02:28 PM
Thanks Ned! If you have the time, could you also run a parse with the new defensive AAs maxed? I'm curious to see how much of an impact they have.

Gensis
11-25-2007, 06:02 PM
I assume that's supposed to be "25.27% hits" Post SoF and not 5.27%. :P

silenzhandz
11-25-2007, 06:21 PM
So the only difference between parses is new skill increases, the ac softcap increase and the benefit to ac over cap increase?

Which = 1% more minimum hits?

Impsi
11-25-2007, 06:34 PM
Nedrom - Why is one parse 3x longer than the other?

Also, I would assume that arena test dummies would not change. I didn't think they were retroactively upping the atk values on mobs from before SoF.

Regardless of all of that, pre AC change has a fairly strait line going from d11 to 20. After SoF you can see something more of a fall off in the post d11 di. I assume that curve is more exagerated on mobs that do significantly more damage. Something's better than nothing right?

Nedrom
11-25-2007, 06:42 PM
So the only difference between parses is new skill increases, the ac softcap increase and the benefit to ac over cap increase?

Which = 1% more minimum hits?

yes

thats without level increase or gear changes identical as possible to the parse before

silenzhandz
11-25-2007, 06:45 PM
ok thanks. It's free so I can't complain :)

Nedrom
11-26-2007, 10:45 AM
here are the ranger results:

looks like rangers got a nice upgrade
this is the exact same gear/aa as my previous tests:

the only difference is that the parry/dodge skills went up, i maxed them before parsing

PRE SOF


cs18 & ca18 & PE -> max 1214, min 197, avg 545.75, hits 42355, miss 50263, 3 hr 53
41.73% misses, 5.38% rip, 8.18% dodge, 9.55% parry, 35.16% accuracy
avg punch 560.43, avg bash 200.34, avg kick 200.96


http://replicators.net/dodh.jpg
http://replicators.net/dodhdetail.jpg

Post SOF

cs18 & ca18 & PE -> max 1214, min 197, avg 482.39, hits 69201, miss 88337
39.4% misses, 6.18% rip, 10.6% dodge, 12.98% parry, 30.86% accuracy
avg punch 494.30, avg bash 197, avg kick 208.81


http://replicators.net/dodh_post_sof.jpg
http://replicators.net/dodhdetail_post_sof.jpg

Calo
11-26-2007, 12:37 PM
Thanks Ned.

It looks like rangers had almost a 10% increase to avoidance; a 30% increase for dodge and parry; and about a 10% increase on riposte

Monks saw around a 30% increase to block; 15% increase to avoidance and dodge; and a 5% increase to reposte.


I'm not sure what the ac is like on the high end raid gear, but if it follows the same pattern as the single group gear it will have double or more the ac of TBS raid gear. Once we have SoF armor with the higher ac we might see close to the same results as rangers in terms of how often we are taking max hits. I'm assuming that chain wearers did not see the same increase to ac that leather and silk classes did; so even when fully equiped rangers will not see that big of a difference from what your parse is showing now.

Overall we still have the superior ability to completely avoid incoming damage over rangers; Rangers riposte better then we do, but we have a small advantage in dodge and a huge advantage with block compared to the parry.

I expect monks will still tank better then rangers once we are geared with SoF stuff, but the gap will now be much smaller.

Nedrom
11-26-2007, 03:21 PM
just as an fyi, riposte skill itself didn't change so I'm not sure why there are more ripostes being reported

Calo
11-26-2007, 05:09 PM
Most likely not possible; but could the returns on the skill have been upped as a small compensation for mobs now having strike-through?

thunderfoot
11-26-2007, 05:31 PM
Rangers did or did not get Shield Block?? If they did then running a parse with a shield should show even better results.

On a side note, I think it is hilarious the number of casters that got shield block this expansion. Oh well, new times and a game that is looking more and more like a new game with every change. I long so much for the game that I fell in love with 6 years ago.

rigeld
11-26-2007, 05:59 PM
They did get Shield Block.
I'd be interested to see what the DPS gap is, with and without HoA.

wycca
11-26-2007, 06:04 PM
Or Maddoc re-did the riposte formula so it no longer gave linear gains.

rigeld
11-29-2007, 09:10 AM
Any idea on how to get a fair comparison on DPS? Sustained isnt hard, but burst might be.

silenzhandz
11-29-2007, 02:13 PM
Any idea on how to get a fair comparison on DPS? Sustained isnt hard, but burst might be.

Wycca has a bunch of parses across all classes, however after sending them to the devs, he does not want to post them publicly though I believe.

rigeld
11-29-2007, 04:08 PM
Sounds fair. If you can/want to Wycca, can you say how close we were to Rangers/Warriors/Zerks?
I understand if you dont want to share.

wycca
11-29-2007, 05:05 PM
Sounds fair. If you can/want to Wycca, can you say how close we were to Rangers/Warriors/Zerks?
I understand if you dont want to share.

That is difficult to answer. It's like asking how what the mph of your car is. Well, it depends on alot of factors!

At this point I do not feel that releasing the actual document, or the numbers it contains to the general public would at all be productive. I think you all can see how that could happen, given it contains dps values compared across 9 classes, and that it would even pull in alot of classes who are not contained in a discussion/rant.

Also, you ask how we compare, what is the situation? Is it 10hr sustainable dps? Is it 15min sustainable dps? Does it include discs, activatable AA, spells, clickies, etc? What buffs? Etc.

As you can see, there is no simple answer. Therefore, while my parses do answer a number of those questions, (enough for a good crusade to be made by anyone who feels they have ground to stand on), it is still specific to the gear and situations and setup they were run in.

It's best to say that I feel, as a result of those parses, that a number of classes are overperforming, and a number of classes, including the monk class, are underperforming. That is nothing new though in the 9 year history of Everquest though, the difference is, I have it laid out in front of me in hard, cold numbers. To my knowledge, that has never really happened. I don't want to see these numbers for the next several years as the subject of threads. There may be a time and reason to release them, but I don't see one at this time.

Kheibik
11-29-2007, 10:21 PM
Ned,

I was wondering if you do a defensive parse for a higher AC monk? I'm very curious to see what sort of effect 3k or so AC has now versus the 2600 on the previous parse.

rigeld
11-30-2007, 12:23 AM
That is difficult to answer. It's like asking how what the mph of your car is. Well, it depends on alot of factors!

At this point I do not feel that releasing the actual document, or the numbers it contains to the general public would at all be productive. I think you all can see how that could happen, given it contains dps values compared across 9 classes, and that it would even pull in alot of classes who are not contained in a discussion/rant.

Also, you ask how we compare, what is the situation? Is it 10hr sustainable dps? Is it 15min sustainable dps? Does it include discs, activatable AA, spells, clickies, etc? What buffs? Etc.

As you can see, there is no simple answer. Therefore, while my parses do answer a number of those questions, (enough for a good crusade to be made by anyone who feels they have ground to stand on), it is still specific to the gear and situations and setup they were run in.

It's best to say that I feel, as a result of those parses, that a number of classes are overperforming, and a number of classes, including the monk class, are underperforming. That is nothing new though in the 9 year history of Everquest though, the difference is, I have it laid out in front of me in hard, cold numbers. To my knowledge, that has never really happened. I don't want to see these numbers for the next several years as the subject of threads. There may be a time and reason to release them, but I don't see one at this time.

Works for me. I'm guessing the numbers were made known to someone besides you? IE the devs? Not that I expect anything to happen, but it cant if they dont have the information.

Thanks for all your work Ned and Wycca.

wycca
11-30-2007, 09:45 AM
Yes they have them.

thunderfoot
11-30-2007, 09:59 AM
At least now we can finally quit hearing Rangers complain that Monks tank better than they do. It might actually be interesting to see a parse comparing a Ranger using a shield to a Shadow Knight and Pally just to see where they now compare at.

I think in the long run, having Rangers mitigate better is a positive for us.

Ughbash
11-30-2007, 11:09 AM
Rangers have been bragging recently about how well they are tanking.

I would also like to see how a Berserker and a Rogue take damage, not at XXX AC, but at full TSS or Full Solteris. Since chain has a higher AC then leather chain classes naturally get more AC then monks. This means if you want to compare a solteris monk to a solteris zerker for tanking you don;t do it at 2500 AC you do it at what the monk would have in full solteris and what the zerker would have in full solteris.

Kheibik
11-30-2007, 04:21 PM
well considering they upped the AC on leather armor a ton in SoF to be about 20 AC behind comparing leather/chain BP, i wouldn't be surprised that in a full set of SoF tier 4 raid armor, monks go back to out mitigating rangers.

Calo
12-01-2007, 07:52 PM
That is difficult to answer. It's like asking how what the mph of your car is. Well, it depends on alot of factors!

At this point I do not feel that releasing the actual document, or the numbers it contains to the general public would at all be productive. I think you all can see how that could happen, given it contains dps values compared across 9 classes, and that it would even pull in alot of classes who are not contained in a discussion/rant.

Also, you ask how we compare, what is the situation? Is it 10hr sustainable dps? Is it 15min sustainable dps? Does it include discs, activatable AA, spells, clickies, etc? What buffs? Etc.

As you can see, there is no simple answer. Therefore, while my parses do answer a number of those questions, (enough for a good crusade to be made by anyone who feels they have ground to stand on), it is still specific to the gear and situations and setup they were run in.

It's best to say that I feel, as a result of those parses, that a number of classes are overperforming, and a number of classes, including the monk class, are underperforming. That is nothing new though in the 9 year history of Everquest though, the difference is, I have it laid out in front of me in hard, cold numbers. To my knowledge, that has never really happened. I don't want to see these numbers for the next several years as the subject of threads. There may be a time and reason to release them, but I don't see one at this time.

Wycca from those parses that you did is the change giving rangers back their innate attack bonus warranted? Or was that change to their attack made after the parses you did?



On a different topic... It seems like the new defensive aa's are a downgrade. While working on ladies of light faction in dragonscale; before I purchased the new defensive aa's I was able to handle the faries without much trouble... I could solo them without the use of any discs and just use my 2.0 click or a healing pot... However after purchasing the first 3 ranks of combat stability it seems like I am having a lot more trouble tanking them; now I seem to need epic click + healing pot and sometimes the use of a disc. I just wanted to see if anyone else was seeing something similar or if I was just imagining that.

wycca
12-27-2007, 10:10 AM
Late reply I know, but at the time of my parse Rangers had their innate attack via the spell buff - which was not included in my parse. It is difficult to make an evaluation of it's impact though, but it would be fair to say that it improves them in the metrics I measured (indefinite sustained and 15min spell/disc/melee/special dps).

It's also worth mentioning that I am working on reproducing these parses with SoF Tier 4 raid weaponry. It takes time...alot of time though.

Oh also, I've parsed the new Event 5 2hb. It's superior to Talons+Brumal. If you at all doubt your ability to acquire an Event 6 1hb or Event 7 HTH (some combination equal to 2 weapons, plus a 4dmg/3dmg aug for some combination of 2) I would heavily recommend picking one up and a 7dmg 2h aug. Likewise, the dps difference between the Event 6 1hb in offhand vs the Event 7 HTH in offhand is so small, as to not be worth mentioning (8-12dps if I recall). So just pick up whatever you can get your hands on. I havn't had a chance to compare them in mainhand unfortunatly (and likely will not anytime soon - sorry).

Wwann
12-27-2007, 06:05 PM
On a different topic... It seems like the new defensive aa's are a downgrade. While working on ladies of light faction in dragonscale; before I purchased the new defensive aa's I was able to handle the faries without much trouble... I could solo them without the use of any discs and just use my 2.0 click or a healing pot... However after purchasing the first 3 ranks of combat stability it seems like I am having a lot more trouble tanking them; now I seem to need epic click + healing pot and sometimes the use of a disc. I just wanted to see if anyone else was seeing something similar or if I was just imagining that.

As a matter of fact, I had noticed this last few nights as well... I purchased only 1 rank of the new CA and it appears from my parses that my actual ability to tank in HoH has dropped considerably with my actual damage taken up 22% compared to previously. Not only that, it seems that my actual DPS has dropped by a similar margin.. I am 76 with 1250 AA's... I popped my steadfast servant and he dropped a haste on me and my DPS went back up to normal (and I NEVER use any of the vet rewards AA normally while in HoH except for LoTD). I thought I was going crazy until i seen Calo's post and realise that it might be more widespread than I thought... anyone else noticing this beside Calo and me?

rigeld
12-28-2007, 11:35 AM
Sure its not the triple attack/flurry changes lowering DPS, causing more overall damage since it takes longer to kill mobs?

Or did that change not affect us? (pretty sure it did).

Calo
12-28-2007, 06:55 PM
I thought those changes were only for zerkers?

Pliko
12-28-2007, 07:25 PM
Late reply I know, but at the time of my parse Rangers had their innate attack via the spell buff - which was not included in my parse. It is difficult to make an evaluation of it's impact though, but it would be fair to say that it improves them in the metrics I measured (indefinite sustained and 15min spell/disc/melee/special dps).

It's also worth mentioning that I am working on reproducing these parses with SoF Tier 4 raid weaponry. It takes time...alot of time though.

Oh also, I've parsed the new Event 5 2hb. It's superior to Talons+Brumal. If you at all doubt your ability to acquire an Event 6 1hb or Event 7 HTH (some combination equal to 2 weapons, plus a 4dmg/3dmg aug for some combination of 2) I would heavily recommend picking one up and a 7dmg 2h aug. Likewise, the dps difference between the Event 6 1hb in offhand vs the Event 7 HTH in offhand is so small, as to not be worth mentioning (8-12dps if I recall). So just pick up whatever you can get your hands on. I havn't had a chance to compare them in mainhand unfortunatly (and likely will not anytime soon - sorry).


Hrm, so twisted staff of temporal paradox with 7dmg aug at 114/29 out damages 47/21 + 45/20 (assuming 4dmg and 3dmg with sharpened talon and brumals?)

Interesting... is that simply with attack on, or does that take into account discing (plus DF where the higher ratio primary would help it jump ahead)

thanks!

wycca
12-28-2007, 07:43 PM
Thats with attack on.

The flurry changes only impacted Ber/War.

Gelan
12-30-2007, 08:45 AM
Now if the thing wouldn't look like a primitive tribal mace...
(made only worse by the anemic poking)

thunderfoot
01-13-2008, 08:58 PM
So we beat this event for the first time this weekend and the Staff dropped. After reading this post I suggested that a new monk app should bid on the staff because we rarely do FC2 anymore and there are numerous members ahead of her waiting for the event 4 H2H from Solteris. This staff unauged should be more DPS than the (2.0+ Tris 3 aug) + Redfang by a decent amount correct?

Reason I asked was I passed on the weapon for the app, and was sent a ton of tells by other players asking me if that was a good buy on the app's part. I said based on what I had read it was. But I do not have any actual numbers on how good that thing parses. It should easilly be better than a 2.0 + Redfang H2H combo but a ballpark estimate would be great.

Crouching
01-14-2008, 03:27 AM
I have one with the +7 damage aug and it outparses my brunals +3 damage aug and FM + mossy by 15+% full burn (orc solteris 2). I like you thought of the other monks in the guild using sub tss level weaponry so I planned on passing on the talons and event 6 1hb. At that time I hoped it would parse the same as my 1h combo. I've since been very pleased with the upgraded ratio and use it nearly exclusively. I will not post parses or respond to dps value questions for fear some troll would try and use the information against us (sorry).

Ajax
01-14-2008, 07:46 AM
I have one with the +7 damage aug and it outparses my brunals +3 damage aug and FM + mossy by 15+% full burn (orc solteris 2). I like you thought of the other monks in the guild using sub tss level weaponry so I planned on passing on the talons and event 6 1hb. At that time I hoped it would parse the same as my 1h combo. I've since been very pleased with the upgraded ratio and use it nearly exclusively. I will not post parses or respond to dps value questions for fear some troll would try and use the information against us (sorry).

Crouching also out parses me with the 2hb and I use Solt 4 claws + 3 dmg aug, and Brumals........

Lyndar
01-14-2008, 02:40 PM
Any sane player or developer should see that the gear coming out of these raids should not be outclasses in AC by gear that you can buy or two box just one year later.


I found this funny so I had to respond.

First - 'balance' (though you did not use this specific term) is an ill-defined constantly in flux illusion. In almost every case that the term is used it is a case of class envy (magnified by the limited variety of skills among classes and raiding's tendency to min/max at the player level). I say this from the perspective of a monk who started playing in '99 and has been through the entire casual/semi-casual/raid-puller/officer-in-raid-guild/main-puller/dps only on raids/retired/semi-retired cycle.

Second - The prevaling notion that expansion A+1 should provide gear that is better in all respects than expansion A is as silly as the notion that group-obtainable gear should always be in all respects inferior to raid-obtainable gear within a certain time span.

There is no reason why crafted gear or groupable gear should not in some cases beat raid gear. This is an utterly unsupportable argument based on the notion that raiding is 'hard' and should therefore produce better rewards. Risk vs Reward used to be used in this context a lot (of course, there is no risk in EQ once you start raiding because you can't lose anything of significance). Raiding is not 'hard', it is just time consuming. Once you join a raiding guild all you need to do to get loot is log in at a set time every day and sit there following instructions. Then, you will eventually get loot. Tada. The only real challenge in raiding is the organization required, which most players don't have to worry about, only the raid-leaders.

If you raid, you also know a lot of other people who play at the same times as you (your guildies). Usually, some of these are crafters, so you have access to crafted items at lower-cost (in some cases no cost at all). It is also easier to form groups, and you know that the people you're grouping with are at least semi-competent and at about the same gear level as yourself. So, getting xp or group-drops is also easier.

At one point EQ was a group-based game. For a long long time now it has really been a raid-based game. Some variety in the acquisition of loot for raiders is a good thing, not a bad thing. If a raider doesn't want to group or tradeskill to get certain items, they will still do just fine with their raid-gear. Annoyed commentary with respect to the fact that someone who isn't a raider can actually get gear that is with respect to one statistic (AC) superior to raid-gear has no particular value.