PDA

View Full Version : Monks cant tank cuz they dont have taunt..



Kamikazy01
09-10-2006, 11:43 PM
That's what a ranger in guild told me today. We cant tank, we cant hold aggro, and we're stupid if we aug our weapons for tanking.

then my hubby got into it with him, and the ranger said he wanted to challenge me for an aggro fight on one mob, see if his twink warrior could hold aggro cuz he's better than all of our top guild tanks. (who not even 10 minutes later i saw beasts, main tanks, other rangers, and a few other 'non-taunting melee' pull aggro off of repeatedly).

but, yeah...monks cant tank because they dont have taunt. lol

Fisticuffs
09-11-2006, 12:03 AM
Pfft.

I cant dps because im busy tanking!

Nedrom
09-11-2006, 12:16 AM
we're getting taunt in tss

it only works while your FD




:lol:


in all reality...there are two parts to tanking:

1) being able to survive the hits (gear/aa)
2) having the tools to keep aggro (discs, dragon fang, epic click, stun procs, taunt)

since dragon fang, aggro procs and damage discs like speedfocus only take you so far, monk aggro is only really realistic in xp groups where you don't have trigger happy wizards ;)

Natefu
09-11-2006, 12:23 AM
That's what a ranger in guild told me today.

Actually this is YOUR mistake. As soon as you identified it was a ranger speaking, nothing else should have been taken seriously. :wink:

Wrenn
09-11-2006, 02:17 AM
Another good taunt thing we have is the omens? stun/snare/blind aa's. They work ok to pull aggro of my shaman if he lands slow too early. With those 3 on 1 minute timers + Dragon Fang you can do ok taunting. Still not as good as a ranger but not too bad.

Daesean
09-11-2006, 02:51 AM
to be honest .. wu's at level 3 gives me a LOT of agro. the spam of hits just seems to generate a lot of agro.

I don't know if its just accumulative or the special attacks by themselves but it works... sure stun and works on lower mobs too.

xsas
09-11-2006, 04:27 AM
only issue i have with tanking is getting my enchanters naked..... but then again only enchanter i group with is played by a woman so not entirly a bad thing.... but then again i think she's dating a guy that owns alot of guns... hmm tough call.

Skiskes
09-11-2006, 07:55 AM
I don't want to tank. tanks should tank better so i don't have to tank. i pull aggro off of lots of tanks and even if i require less healing than them i'll FD off and give it back. they rolled the tank, they get to play it.

i'm sick of everyone wanting to do everyone elses job. wars, sks, pallies, even rogues feel like they can pull. fyi, that's not pulling... that's going out and aggroing mobs and bringing them all back, anyone can do that.


used to have a guildleader that wouldn't let anyone pull but him in exp groups. he used to wipe us all the time, pulling 5 or 6 at a time.


if everyone does thier job, you'll win everytime. its when people try to show off and do something stupid that causes wipes.



Skiskes

Ddrakon
09-11-2006, 08:17 AM
Another good taunt thing we have is the omens? stun/snare/blind aa's. They work ok to pull aggro of my shaman if he lands slow too early. With those 3 on 1 minute timers + Dragon Fang you can do ok taunting. Still not as good as a ranger but not too bad.

You're seeing things. Look at the lucy entry for these abilities. Crippling Strike (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6069&source=Live), Stunning Kick (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6072&source=Live) and Eye Gouge (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6075&source=Live) all have a Hate Generated of 1. That field was added to change the aggro of certain spells and abilities that would've been too much aggro otherwise. Example: Dragon Fang (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.html?id=6727&source=Live) has a Hate Generated of 400 because when it came out, it had the same aggro as a 1200 nuke. Since it was too good snap aggro for Monks, they reduced it.

In short, these abilities have next to no aggro at all. What's making you take aggro from your shaman is your swing aggro and Dragon Fang.

I'll add that Stunning Kick can help with aggro generation on mobs that it works on since the mob will stay stunned while you beat on it, but the ability itself isn't good aggro at all - far from it.

Edit - As for the original topic, I had two CS4 augs in my 2.0 recently because I tanked a lot in groups and I boxed often. Normal setup was 2.0 mainhand and AMV wraps offhand with Tunat aug, but I swapped in Seething Fists of Slaughter in offhand if I really wanted aggro. Its innate proc is CS3 and I had a CS3 aug in it. That's four stun procs, plus my Symbol of the Planemasters clicky. Very few people could hold aggro or steal aggro from me when I went all out. In groups, nobody could outaggro me except maybe a Wizard chain casting Ether Flame or someone taunting. My Ranger friend who also likes to tank would have to chain cast his aggro spells non-stop so I wouldn't steal it - and I still did every once in a while. If the Paladins or SKs were slacking, I got aggro.

To conclude, a Monk's aggro can be very good if they have their gear setup towards that. Hell, I changed my procs back to lifetaps and I still get pretty high swing aggro. Tell your guildy that he's being a nuthead. :P

Ancaglon
09-11-2006, 08:30 AM
Anyone can tank in content that they're over-geared for, whether or not they have Taunt. However, our only instant-snap-aggro tool is Dragon Fang - procs and DPS all take time to work.

(Although, as Takanit said, Stunning Kick can help stopping a mob beating a healer/caster to death while you gain aggro from DPS).

Ddrakon
09-11-2006, 08:38 AM
I didn't have any aggro problems when I tanked Ture and I don't think I'm overgeared for that content. :P

Ancaglon
09-11-2006, 08:41 AM
For the whole fight, or just when the real tanks dropped?

wycca
09-11-2006, 09:12 AM
I didn't have any aggro problems when I tanked Ture and I don't think I'm overgeared for that content. :P

I'm fairly sure we've had mages and enchanters tank Ture.....

Benadebx
09-11-2006, 09:39 AM
I didn't have any aggro problems when I tanked Ture and I don't think I'm overgeared for that content. :P

I'm fairly sure we've had mages and enchanters tank Ture.....

Triality isn't ya average guild though is it :lol: the Enchies in Triality have more HP unbuffed than our monk's unbuffed.. by 700 to the highest/highest :P i'm bored at school btw in a freee lesson :roll:

Souljahha
09-11-2006, 11:06 AM
just fd wait 25 secs and the ranger will be at his bind spot, continue tanking.

No, try using dragon punch aa. I've found that to be a fairly good taunt tool at times. That and it's good when pallies decide to stun push mobs all over creation.

Sensei Xarrais Klanklan
09-11-2006, 12:08 PM
Monk + Voice of thule = ultamate agro in game Increases our agro per hit and we have the highest hits per-second of any class.

Even without voice of thule going all out for dps gets agro 90% of the itme always have to have finger on the evade key (imitate death key for intensity of reso evading)

When we do some old stuff for fun like time I don't bother evading off agro and people can see just how well monks can hold agro =p Did intensity of reso + speed of focus on quarm nothing was getting it off me when taunt did land warrior or knight got agro for a sec but intsantly back to me hehe

Ugle
09-11-2006, 01:04 PM
Monks can generate quite a bit of agro over time. But we still don't have snap agro. Take a Monk, support classes, and a Chanter into say a Nest mission. Pull 5 and have the Chanter mez 4 while you kill one. Anyone else get agro when you broke mez on the last couple? Fight a named that has a nice stun, did you hit taunt when you were stunned and lost agro? We take hits fine in trivial content, but we still don't take hits like an equivalently geared Plate tank. We may sustain a lot of agro but if we lose it we have no button we can cast to generate a lot of agro (DF is nice, snare is nice, neither one is gonna save that Wizard that drops a 20K nuke too early). Monk tanking relies on agro management, and either being over-geared or having multiple healers.

Lots of you don't seem to compare apples to apples as well on how well we take hits. Normally at ~2450-2500 AC, 100 av, IB3+8%, ID4, 25 shielding, I easily out-tank P/U group tanks. But I'm not even comparable to my high 3K AC guild tanks. Tank Valik and I'll be impressed : P

Nedrom
09-11-2006, 01:54 PM
Another good taunt thing we have is the omens? stun/snare/blind aa's. They work ok to pull aggro of my shaman if he lands slow too early. With those 3 on 1 minute timers + Dragon Fang you can do ok taunting. Still not as good as a ranger but not too bad.

those aa's don't give you any aggro, they have a fixed override aggro of 1

the only one that is useful however is the stun, if it lands on the npc, it stops the npc from doing damage to frail priests/casters =)

otherwise a normal punch would be just as much hate

Xthiss_AB
09-11-2006, 02:45 PM
Thats like rangers bitching about tanks not being able to hold agro when said ranger is using Swiftcleave and Shademaul both with CSIV Augs. And I was in ranger serverwide when he was ranting about this.

Xthiss_AB
09-11-2006, 02:47 PM
Oh and about monks not being able to tank harder stuff I know its not hard by today's standards but didn't a monk/cleric duo Chailak or Feratha or was that just a rumor.

Xthiss_AB
09-11-2006, 02:51 PM
I didn't have any aggro problems when I tanked Ture and I don't think I'm overgeared for that content. :P

I'm fairly sure we've had mages and enchanters tank Ture.....

Triality isn't ya average guild though is it :lol: the Enchies in Triality have more HP unbuffed than our monk's unbuffed.. by 700 to the highest/highest :P i'm bored at school btw in a freee lesson :roll:

Hehe if you want to feel bad about your HPs look up Ormus's magelo druid in TR that won the BotB I think. He makes most warriors and kinghts cry lol.

Corneliuss
09-11-2006, 02:52 PM
only issue i have with tanking is getting my enchanters naked..... but then again only enchanter i group with is played by a woman so not entirly a bad thing.... but then again i think she's dating a guy that owns alot of guns... hmm tough call.

lol, that's easily fixed though...

Talk to Chanter - make sure she knows monks can't taunt... "You may want to root the mob right before I break Mez".

Problem solved - and then the chanter doesn't have to tank as the group won't be depending on the Ranger to taunt - then it'll die and be even more pissed at the chanter for attempting to help keep it off the ranger, lol

Is he a Melee or Ranged ranger? Usually you can get to them easily with that approach - if he's Ranged, comment about how cool the 2.0 slashing epics are.. If he's melee ask why didn't Sony make the ranger 2.0 Epic a bow. *snicker*

Iksa
09-11-2006, 03:27 PM
only issue i have with tanking is getting my enchanters naked..... but then again only enchanter i group with is played by a woman so not entirly a bad thing.... but then again i think she's dating a guy that owns alot of guns... hmm tough call.

lol, that's easily fixed though...

Talk to Chanter - make sure she knows monks can't taunt... "You may want to root the mob right before I break Mez".

Problem solved - and then the chanter doesn't have to tank as the group won't be depending on the Ranger to taunt - then it'll die and be even more pissed at the chanter for attempting to help keep it off the ranger, lol

Is he a Melee or Ranged ranger? Usually you can get to them easily with that approach - if he's Ranged, comment about how cool the 2.0 slashing epics are.. If he's melee ask why didn't Sony make the ranger 2.0 Epic a bow. *snicker*Mez, then tash, then slow, then memblur. If the enchanter has the memblur AAs, memblur works virtually every time. I've been boxing an enchanter and cleric for years and my enchanter never unmems memblur. It has saved the enchanter so many times I can't even guess at the number.

Corneliuss
09-11-2006, 03:44 PM
Mez, then tash, then slow, then memblur. If the enchanter has the memblur AAs, memblur works virtually every time. I've been boxing an enchanter and cleric for years and my enchanter never unmems memblur. It has saved the enchanter so many times I can't even guess at the number.

Yeah, either way works. Although, I'd be with the school of thought that a monk is not a tank... I wouldn't say they 'couldn't' tank when needed. I've seen a few very fine monk tanks - but then I've also seen some gimpy pulling monks who 'think' they are tanks.

But never - in a million years could any of them ever compare to a SK I grouped with for a very short time in PoD.. I'm playing a cleric, and just DUMPING mana on this SK to keep him alive. I'm like WTF? I've healed groups in the PoD courtyards, and I've seen chanters who need fewer heals than this SK (this wasn't long after PoP came out). He's got a nice weapon.. It was one of those big penile looking lances, forget the name. He also had his AA horse.. hmmm, something's up here...

So outta morbid curosity I inspect him..... Take a guess which BP this guy's using to 'tank' PoD mobs....

...

lol - might think maybe his Crimson Armor... or perhaps a Kael BP.. oh no, this dudes got all 18 AC of a Ry'gorr BP!!! LOL

Now, I think he's just a uninformed newb.. perhaps - so I tactfully send him a tell "Hey, not being mean or anything, but if you wanna do ok tanking in PoD, you should really upgrade your armor :)" - in a very nice way.

So his reply? -- I'm waiting for 'yeah, maybe I should farm some' - or something like that..

No.. it's "Well, I only got like 15K in the bank and I want to get a Windblade".

Cleric Tells group, "I hate to take off so quickly all, but something just came up!!"...


lol

Kamikazy01
09-11-2006, 03:49 PM
Fight a named that has a nice stun, did you hit taunt when you were stunned and lost agro? We take hits fine in trivial content, but we still don't take hits like an equivalently geared Plate tank

Mistress of Malady in Theater of Blood. Has a stun, hits up to 3258 (on me). I tanked that mob for 10 minutes friday night. We did not have a tank on the raid at all and my hubby decided 'lets kill it, Kami can tank'. We won the fight. I kept aggro almost the whole time. The only time I lost aggro was when I went -174 and then DI fired, got back up, and got aggro back instantly.

Do I want to do it again? Not really lol. my toes were curled the whole time as i sat on the edge of my seat staring at HoTT. lol


/rant on

The reason what he said pissed me off is he was saying Monks cannot tank, at all, because we dont have taunt. And this was less than 48 hours after i tanked Mistress of Malady. I'm sorry but I do not take it well when someone tells me i cannot do something, when i know damn well that i can. In game or RL, dont tell me i can't when i know i can.

Yes, we dont have taunt and have to rely on other ways to hold aggro, but most of us CAN tank if we have to, or if we are monks that WANT to.

Not all monks want to tank, and that is perfectly fine. that is how they enjoy the game. Some monks want to tank occasionally, and they can, that is how we enjoy the game. That's what's so great about being a monk, we can play the class the way we want to, to make the game enjoyable. We can pull, we can dps, we can tank (if we want), we can keep ourselves alive pretty well on a lot of encounters where we are not tanking, etc. What could be better than being a monk? /grin

/rant off. :)

Soygen
09-11-2006, 03:52 PM
Monks can't tank. It's a scientific impossibility. Stephen Hawking proved it.

Kamikazy01
09-11-2006, 04:16 PM
Monks can't tank. It's a scientific impossibility. Stephen Hawking proved it.

Ah, if Stephen says it's impossible, then i'll /bow to his knowledge. :)

wycca
09-11-2006, 04:46 PM
I didn't have any aggro problems when I tanked Ture and I don't think I'm overgeared for that content. :P

I'm fairly sure we've had mages and enchanters tank Ture.....

Triality isn't ya average guild though is it :lol: the Enchies in Triality have more HP unbuffed than our monk's unbuffed.. by 700 to the highest/highest :P i'm bored at school btw in a freee lesson :roll:

This was awhile ago =P. Pre-Redfang at the very latest.

wycca
09-11-2006, 04:47 PM
Monks can't tank. It's a scientific impossibility. Stephen Hawking proved it.

Ah, if Stephen says it's impossible, then i'll /bow to his knowledge. :)

Yea Stephen is the man. He also said that Iksar's were only fit for handbags =)

Nedrom
09-11-2006, 05:11 PM
Soygen = Stephen Hawking?

Soygen
09-12-2006, 08:56 AM
Speak-And-Spell Voice

You.Just.Might.Be.Surprised.Hand-bag.

Ancaglon
09-12-2006, 09:02 AM
Right, I'm gonna turn you in for using a 3rd party program for playing EQ!

eagleclaww
09-15-2006, 01:29 PM
My weapons are sorta perma augged for tanking...
I use the augs that proc stun and/or lifetap.


As far as tanking: I a tank can get aggro off me and hold it, thats great, if a tank can't get aggro off me and hold it, I'd be the better tank anyway.

As much dps as I have, my berseker with less than 50aa does a considerable better job at stealing aggro from tanks than I do.

If I am tanking, its not too hard for me to keep aggro. Unless a slower has a habit of trying to land slow too early, its pretty difficult for non War/Knights to steal aggro from me anyway, with the sole exception of bersekers, who are aggro whores, unless they are trying to get aggro.


I generally don't go around telling "up an coming monks" to tank anyway. Monks that tank general do it out of nessessity, usually because there isn't any tanks LFG.

Wonton
09-15-2006, 01:41 PM
eagle's totally right. i started tanking and focusing more on my ac/AA's because our tanks are non-existant after raids. i've gotten a lot better at it. i've learned some tricks to help with agro, and it's really helped with my AA/xp grind because i haven't had to rely on other people to do that.

Ddemons
09-15-2006, 05:27 PM
*shrugs* i may not be high end or anything, but iv had to tank so many times im considering re-equiping my warrior for practice XD
most recent made me laugh and make the :shock: face..
i tanked Arcstone on some undead things.. hitting 800 dmg ish.. tanked a good minute or so without it being slowed (necro/cleric 2 boxer and the necro decided to take off running..she had to bring necro back)
made me laugh because i wasnt dying immediately..

what makes me laugh is when some of the casters who have never meleed in their life try to give me advice on gear.. one of em told me something like "its only 50 hp, not worth upgrading to it"

xsas
09-15-2006, 11:39 PM
only issue i have with tanking is getting my enchanters naked..... but then again only enchanter i group with is played by a woman so not entirly a bad thing.... but then again i think she's dating a guy that owns alot of guns... hmm tough call.

lol, that's easily fixed though...

Talk to Chanter - make sure she knows monks can't taunt... "You may want to root the mob right before I break Mez".

Problem solved - and then the chanter doesn't have to tank as the group won't be depending on the Ranger to taunt - then it'll die and be even more pissed at the chanter for attempting to help keep it off the ranger, lol

Is he a Melee or Ranged ranger? Usually you can get to them easily with that approach - if he's Ranged, comment about how cool the 2.0 slashing epics are.. If he's melee ask why didn't Sony make the ranger 2.0 Epic a bow. *snicker*Mez, then tash, then slow, then memblur. If the enchanter has the memblur AAs, memblur works virtually every time. I've been boxing an enchanter and cleric for years and my enchanter never unmems memblur. It has saved the enchanter so many times I can't even guess at the number.

more fun killing them then it is doing that yo

supajonk
09-16-2006, 03:52 AM
That's what a ranger in guild told me today. We cant tank, we cant hold aggro, and we're stupid if we aug our weapons for tanking.

then my hubby got into it with him, and the ranger said he wanted to challenge me for an aggro fight on one mob, see if his twink warrior could hold aggro cuz he's better than all of our top guild tanks. (who not even 10 minutes later i saw beasts, main tanks, other rangers, and a few other 'non-taunting melee' pull aggro off of repeatedly).

but, yeah...monks cant tank because they dont have taunt. lol

Ok here goes,

My main is a ranger and my close alt is a monk. Why you ask? Because i play alot with 2 monks from my guild(saw what they could do and made my lil alt hehe). From the ranger prespective its VERY hard to get and keep agro from them, I mean i have to snare, use a dot and use at least 2-3 nukes constantly(no taunt because it fails more than not and takes a few seconds to get the mob's attnetion, btw i have 2.0 and CS4 on both weps). If by chance i am slow at casting or dont get both the dot and snare off in time .. forget it. The main reason I tank is beacuase they do much more dps than I do in our group situation (even tho they both tank better than I do, but they also always box) and sometimes my disc comes in handy(unless i can play my monk =P, then they just tank).

Sunchyne
09-16-2006, 10:48 AM
Nedrom said exactly it, there are two parts to tanking, first being able to take the hits and second being able to keep aggro. And just like he said, monk aggro is pretty good in a group setting (except for those wizards who don't know how to manage aggro when you have to have a monk tanking), but anywhere else, any tank can pull it off us with a taunt + 1 - 1.5 second cast aggro spell, and keep it if they are smart. Warriors can pull it off even faster. The one thing we are good at is taking damage. Many times I'll pick up an extra add or grab that boss mob after he mem wipes, hit Earthwalk, hit 2.0 click, hit a potion, and tank him for about 10 seconds until the tanks get their heads out of their asses.

Ugle
09-16-2006, 01:04 PM
two parts to tanking
There's a third part in a group setting - efficiency. If you can tank but require more healing mana, perhaps you aren't the best tank for that situation. It's far more efficient for a cleric to CH a plate tank, even if he does take more healing overall then it is if the Cleric has to use fast heals.



any tank can pull it off us with a taunt + 1 - 1.5 second cast aggro spell, and keep it if they are smart. Warriors can pull it off even faster.

I remember even pre-Anguish grouping with a friend who was more casual (believe I was using 1.5/MR at the time). He was laughing because half the time even when a taunt landed the MOB never turned because I had agro back so fast. You might see HoTT flicker, but that was about it. Sure a Warrior can AE taunt - but not every fight and not repeatedly. Any time I've done P/U groups with <Tacvi equipped tanks (and unless they have a BBoB most <CoA Warriors), I can fight them for agro and get it quite often, and that's with 2 X Lifetap 1 CS4 so it's not as high agro as it could be. If I get a lead on the tanks (offtanking some of our...small pulls until a real tank can get on the MOB), a fair amount of the time I'll know a real tank is on the MOB because they will taunt and it will turn to them for a second. At that point I'll FD and drop it to them. But if I've been beating on a DK MOB for 30 seconds, tanks tend not to "just grab agro and keep it".

Ddrakon
09-16-2006, 07:00 PM
Just using taunt won't pull it off when we've got so high swing aggro. That's why they need to follow it up with stun, terror or bellow depending on the class.

SantoMaahj
09-19-2006, 05:16 PM
Didn't monk at EQ release or pre-post kunark , that era get nerfed? I dont remember. I was playing a ranger atm before I rolled my Iksar monk.

Redcloud WK
09-20-2006, 03:13 PM
I don't want to tank. tanks should tank better so i don't have to tank. i pull aggro off of lots of tanks and even if i require less healing than them i'll FD off and give it back. they rolled the tank, they get to play it.

i'm sick of everyone wanting to do everyone elses job. wars, sks, pallies, even rogues feel like they can pull. fyi, that's not pulling... that's going out and aggroing mobs and bringing them all back, anyone can do that.


used to have a guildleader that wouldn't let anyone pull but him in exp groups. he used to wipe us all the time, pulling 5 or 6 at a time.


if everyone does thier job, you'll win everytime. its when people try to show off and do something stupid that causes wipes.



Skiskes

Must have been Furor.

Ughbash
09-21-2006, 07:14 AM
Didn't monk at EQ release or pre-post kunark , that era get nerfed? I dont remember. I was playing a ranger atm before I rolled my Iksar monk.

Late luclin right before PoP.