PDA

View Full Version : Game mechanics and rumors - Questions



Vars
07-29-2006, 06:55 PM
Lately I've been hearing lots of conflicting stories on different aspects of game mechanics and I don't know who's right and who's wrong. There's two main people I ask my questions in game. Each one has been right thier share of times and each one has been wrong their share. So neither of them knows everything(not that anyone but the programmers do anyway).

Ok, for 70 levels I thought ATK is the basis of your hit %, and how often you hit for max damage. The other day I was told your hit % was purely based off skill in the weapon you use(not including factors like discs, and accuracy gear) and ATK only determines how often you hit for max. It's tough to prove though. The person who told me this suggested switching to something my skill sucks in and watch the percent drop. But for one, I have no low skills, and two, by using a low skill weapon I'd have lower ATK anyway, so still wouldn't know which causes the misses.

Only way I can think of to parse this is to get butt nekkid so my strength is like 90, and I lose all my ATK from gear, and hit something and see what the percent is. But that's alot of work and something I'd need help with since I can't tank stuff nekkid.

The other one is defensive AAs. On my first character, I knocked out all my avoidance AAs first. Then came back to mitigation AAs. This time, one of my monk friends told me finish both from each expansion, then move on. Knock out all archetype avoid and mitigation, then PoP avoid and mitigation, etc. His reasoning is that having a mob miss you is great, but when they hit you, they're still gonna hit you like a truck. Increasing mitigation will decrease the damage spikes when a 2k hitting mob quads you in the back as you're running home.

Ok. Sounds good to me, so I went with it. He is, after all, in the top 3 on the server.

I constantly keep my parser running so I can monitor what each rank of AAs is doing for my defensive DPS. I pretty much always fight in the same place, so I'm using the same mobs and using averages over 20-30 fights to determine what the AA did for me. Well, the avoidance helped a little. I finished PoP AAs. But my parses when I did mitigation AAs didn't change one bit. 27 AAs later, I take exactly the same DPS on average from 30 fights. I get hit for exactly the same average damage.

I mentioned to a warrior friend that the 27 AAs I spent did absolutely nothing. What he says is that mitigation AAs increase an invisible cap on AC. For instance, say the cap for monks is 1800 AC. If you get 2500 AC, it's no different than a monk with 1800 AC. So you get the mitigation AAs and that invisible caps goes up to, say, 1850, 1900, 1950, whatever. So what he says is I gained absolutely nothing because my AC wasn't capped to begin with. I have 1650 or so AC.

I always thought the mitigation AAs worked for everyone whether you have 500 AC or 5000 AC.

But he also was able to quote a Dev who posted it in clear english on the warrior forum that yes, if you don't have capped AC, mitigation AAs do nothing at all. So if this is true, anyone know how much AC I need for them to do anything?

azathool
07-29-2006, 07:23 PM
Ok, for 70 levels I thought ATK is the basis of your hit %, and how often you hit for max damage. The other day I was told your hit % was purely based off skill in the weapon you use(not including factors like discs, and accuracy gear) and ATK only determines how often you hit for max. It's tough to prove though.

Correct. It's actually pretty easy to parse. Make sure you have no ATK buffs, then parse. Then get a load of ATK bufs, and re-parse. Your hit % will not change, however the avg damage you hit for will.

+Accurancy mods will however increase your hit% for "normal" attacks (+acc does NOT work for missiles or "special" attacks like Kick or backstab).


The other one is defensive AAs. On my first character, I knocked out all my avoidance AAs first. Then came back to mitigation AAs. This time, one of my monk friends told me finish both from each expansion, then move on. Knock out all archetype avoid and mitigation, then PoP avoid and mitigation, etc. His reasoning is that having a mob miss you is great, but when they hit you, they're still gonna hit you like a truck. Increasing mitigation will decrease the damage spikes when a 2k hitting mob quads you in the back as you're running home.

He's right, you should get each expansion in turn, but the reason is each set of expansions defensive AA's has diminishing returns. So the first set (CS/CS) give like +10% at level 3. But the next set give less for more AA's and so on down the line, until the DoDH AA's gave like 0.5% per rank (5 AA's). So the reasoning, cost vs effect, the lower AA's give more for your buck.


What he says is that mitigation AAs increase an invisible cap on AC.

Correct, Nedrom has parsed this extensivly and shown it to be the case. Mitigation AA's raise the point of the softcap starting. So if your below the softcap, they do squat.


For instance, say the cap for monks is 1800 AC.

It's actually FAR FAR lower than this, approx 1400 displayed. Read http://forums.monkly-business.net/viewtopic.php?t=8

So basically, any monk who's not naked and in > Kunark gear will be above the softcap, so don't worry, the AA's are useful for any monk except if your naked !.

Kydaan
07-29-2006, 08:06 PM
Correct. It's actually pretty easy to parse. Make sure you have no ATK buffs, then parse. Then get a load of ATK bufs, and re-parse. Your hit % will not change, however the avg damage you hit for will.
My understanding of it is that the attack value shown on screen is a blended value like AC. +ATK buffs affects the portion of that blended number that is concerned with your DI distribution just like putting on a piece of armor affects your mitigation AC. Offense and weapons skills affect the TO HIT part of the Attack in a similar manner that Defense skill changes the avoidance part of displayed AC.

Or am I totally out to lunch?

azathool
07-29-2006, 08:48 PM
My understanding of it is that the attack value shown on screen is a blended value like AC.
Yup, the value displayed is a blend of your weapon skill, offence, your Str, and any buffs.

But it's pretty meaningless talking about weapon skills, cos as you said yourself, your max weapon skill & offense, and most monks will be soon after leveling.


+ATK buffs affects the portion of that blended number that is concerned with your DI distribution just like putting on a piece of armor affects your mitigation AC.
Yup, thats why +ATK buffs do not increase hit %, but instead allow your avg hit to be higher (ie.. increase DI chance).


Offense and weapons skills affect the TO HIT part of the Attack in a similar manner that Defense skill changes the avoidance part of displayed AC.
Not sure about this, you may be right. But since we'll all be pretty much max soon after leveling, this is something we can't change.

Vars
07-29-2006, 09:01 PM
I'm not sure if I'm reading that chart right.

The line that says:

600 1798 25.71 7.28 242.67

is a guy with 1798 AC shown when you look at your inventory?

And the white text is someone with no defensive AAs at all?

So if that's the case, why is there still decreases in hit average all the way up to 1798 with no AAs if the cap is 1400?

azathool
07-29-2006, 09:21 PM
There is no cap, there is a "softcap". More AC will always decrease the avg hit, just after you reach the softcap it's less effective (a ratio) rather than a 1:1 value.

Vars
07-29-2006, 09:36 PM
Ahh. Now it makes more sense then. Thanks alot.

BrueFromXev
08-07-2006, 05:37 AM
Offense and weapons skills affect the TO HIT part of the Attack in a similar manner that Defense skill changes the avoidance part of displayed AC.

It doesn't really matter for the reasons stated above, but just for the record, this is true. I once took a heretic long sword (monk usable 1HS) to WC and attacked Kizdean Gix to test this. My hit rate seemed a bit over 50% which was considerabley more than it should have been if weapons skill was the only factor. I took off all of my accuracy gear before testing.

Echuta
08-09-2006, 01:36 AM
I think levels play into it somehow. Have you ever PLed a melee? You hit alot less frequently against a red, and the hits you do get are lower damage.

Ancaglon
08-09-2006, 10:10 AM
The "no AA" Monk mitigation cap is 120 raw AC - this translates to about 1050 displayed AC on a level 70 monk.

(See quote from Shackleton (http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=roguetactic&message.id=817&query.id=0#M817), who was the Rogue Correspondent at that time. This also confirms my estimate of 118 from a regression of Nedrom's parses, from the thread linked above).

At 1650 AC, you're above the cap even with all the Mitigation AAs. However, if you are fighting mobs that you are already mitigating very well before the AA (eg low blues that hit for relatively little), increasing it further won't help much AGAINST THOSE MOBS -- but will help immensely against harder hitting mobs.

Nedrom
08-09-2006, 12:29 PM
Some day I'll hit that sweet 3k ac mark =)

Iksa
08-09-2006, 05:45 PM
I have over 2900 AC raidbuffed currently. Sadly, I'll lose about 50-100 AC on wishlist upgrades at some point in the near future though.