how nerfed

[WiouXev]

is burn now?

[Shotan]

Last time I played it was pretty much pointless to use.

Who knows about now tho, heh

God forbid a power that sets people on fire would actually damage them!!

[Brinian]

From what I've read on the CoH forums, it sounds like Taunt won't keep mobs in the burn patch any longer. Prolly a moot point anyway. The defense and resistance powers have been so thoroughly nerfed that I doubt a fire tanker could survive any respectable attempt at herding.

Although, I've been out of the game for about 9 months now, so I don't have first-hand recent experience with it. I just browse through the CoH forums once a month or so to see what the state of the game is.

[guice666]

that's a good thing do. Fire tanks are so extensively overpowered back when I played it wasn't even funny. Just watching a Fire tank single handedly take out a complete outdoor zone while in a group of 8 proved it enough for me.

You might think the nerf sucks, but in reality it was needed.

[WiouXev]

well no one was stopping you from making a fire tanker guice.

i enjoyed it, maybe a little overpowered but very very fun. thats what games are about. after they nerfed it and among many other nerfs I just quit.

[guice666]

ha, I like that reply. "Yeah, they're overpowered. If you don't like it, make one! don't nerf them". It's like saying "Necros are overpowered. If you don't like it make one! don't nerf them" (back in the day when necros WERE overpowered).

Seriously mate. Just cause you enjoyed your fire tank does not mean everybody will enjoy a fire tank.

Fire tanks where, hands down, too overpowered and required the nerfs. Sorry for all fire tanks out there. No sympathy here.

[Sontor]

Yea, fire tanks were ridiculous Wiou. And if they had tried the "dont nerf make other ATs better" then the entire game would have been trivial.

I agree that CoH turned into a nerf fest and it's my opinion that they ruined the game.. but fire tankers had to go...

[Wubao]

Heya Sont. Nice to see a blast from my own CoH past.

I'm not sure if fire tankers per se had to go. Or even Burn.

But herding definitely did. Fighting multiple mobs at once was, and still is a really great mechanic. It makes CoH intense and fun. Fighting entire maps took it too far.

But class balance in that game, especially with the advent of PvP, just went spun way too out of control. Especially in regards to the level of "content" the game actually has. If heroes can't run around bashing tons of villains all day, what is it they're really going to do? Tradeskill? Raid? LoL!

I heard a rumor that CoH might someday be getting an end-game. This true?

[guice666]

I do have to say, I was against PvP since day one in CoH. The game was just not designed appropriately for PvP. Now the PvP'ers are finally realizing this and, hopefully, are realizing how much of a mistake it was to push Cryptic Studios into PvP.

[ArmsmanCoH]

Heya Sont. Nice to see a blast from my own CoH past.

I heard a rumor that CoH might someday be getting an end-game. This true?

This 'End Game' was promised bacck in Wave 2 of CoH beta (in January 2004). Here we are, two+ years later; and we have the SAME endgame we had since CoH bet - Hammidon (with rewards that have been nerfed MULTIPLE times; which makes this 'end-game' rather unappealing to most Level 50 characters).

Again, Statesman is GOOD at promising. It's too bad he often SUCKS at delivering.

And believe me, it took quite A LOT to make me finally decide to quit Co(X) for good this past December.

[Dalantia]

And I will still continue saying "screw large group 'endgame' content" because I believe it would be the wrong direction for CoH to head. I don't want another game that turns into "PL through the rest of it to get to the real game". If you want that, go play WoW or something..

There've been rumors of some Legends system, but hopefully, it'll stay solo/small group oriented.

(I hold the opinion that CoX player combat could/would have been better had they not added Stalkers, personally. But then, that's my opinion.)

[Sontor]

Hi Wubao, good to see you too.

I agree with Dalantia, "end game" isn't necessary in CoH. They had a nice little game at release, all they had to do was dial down a few thing they hadn't planned on (like herding) and they would have been fine.

As far as PvP goes, I think the genius of CoH is what works against itself. They did a great job introducing dozens of powers and infinite combinations.. but to balance that against both mobs and other players?.. unrealistic as we have seen.

[Brinian]

There's no rule which says that endgame content must be large-scale raids or mass PvP. In fact I'm mystified as to why Cryptic hasn't simply used the existing taskfore/trial mechanics as a way to give the lvl 50 characters something worthwhile to do. The devs just keep punting. How much lvl 40+ PvE content have these guys added since Issue 2? I'm drawing a blank.

[Wubao]

Just to clarify, I was never in favor of CoH getting end-game like an EQ end-game. No 80 hero raids of the Negative Zone. No storming the Latverian Castle and having to take out Mini-Dooms in intricate encounters as you work your way up to the good Doctor himself.

BUT the game as it is today leaves level capped heroes with nothing to do. Absolutely nothing. Why get Superchum to level 50? So I can retire him? I bought the game to play him!

I never needed raids. But I did need a continuation of his adventures. Or else the entire process was all a huge waste of time.

[ArmsmanCoH]

Just to clarify, I was never in favor of CoH getting end-game like an EQ end-game. No 80 hero raids of the Negative Zone. No storming the Latverian Castle and having to take out Mini-Dooms in intricate encounters as you work your way up to the good Doctor himself.

BUT the game as it is today leaves level capped heroes with nothing to do. Absolutely nothing. Why get Superchum to level 50? So I can retire him? I bought the game to play him!

I never needed raids. But I did need a continuation of his adventures. Or else the entire process was all a huge waste of time.

Well said; and I was the same way - In in fact didn't care for Hamidon Raids (I did two of them just for the experience of doing them - first time we failed, second time we won, so that was it for me).

What I and many of folks with one or more 50 Level characters to do, was some different Trials and TFs, and content DESIGNED to be done at Levle 50 that was fun and challenging. The ONLY near level 50 content was in Issue #2. for FOUR (and it will soon be 5 issues); their has been NO substainial 47-50 content added to the game at all.

Like the above poster said, I WANT to continue to play my Level 50 - not retire him, or re-rool a Kheldian. And again, Statesman promised in CoH beta that he agreed and would add and expand on the endgame for Level 50ies because he too agreed you should have to retire a character at 50 after taking the time to get him/her there.

So, again 2+ years and the Level 50ies still subscribing (and I'm NOT one of them and the lack of Level 50 content in just one of many reasons); and there's STILL no new Level 50 content other then what was added in Issue 2.

Again, Statesman and crew are good on promising; but NOT GOOD on DELIVERING.

[Dalantia]

I remember hearing once that only 5% of characters ever reach level 50. Might have been only 5% of accounts have a level 50. *ponder*

Did you do every story arc, every task force, every contact, every trial? Earn every badge, every accolade..

If you suddenly became too good for the rest of the game when you hit 50, then you're the one that missed the content. If you did everything, then this is the part where I joke that you had too much time on your hands. *laughs*

While I can agree that there might need to be a tad more 45-50 content.. *shrug* I don't think they think it's a "do it today" priority. Probably on the list, but not immediate.

[guice666]

5% of characters, maybe. But definitely not 5% of accounts. That's a rather low number.

[Sontor]

Yea, I ran one character up to max level once and realized the futility of being there. From that point on, I created characters on a whim and played with all the AT types that I could fit in before the continual nerfs ran me away from the game altogether.

It's not surprising that only 5% of the characters get max level, you can see where it's going to end before you get there.

That being said, I agree that end game content isn't really required in the classic MMO sense. Just give folks with max level characters something to do, as others have said.

All of this is academic to me though, IMO the game is not worth my dollar anymore. Too many nerfs, too many broken promises.

[Dalantia]

Which promises? I can see why people would quit because of the nerfs (never mind that I hold the opinion that nothing is broken, just that people are unwilling to step back a bit and re-evaluate what they can handle), but what promises have been broken?

(If you can't tell, I'm getting tired of hearing "broken promises" - because I don't see any promises being made.)

[Wubao]

Did you do every story arc, every task force, every contact, every trial? Earn every badge, every accolade..


In my own and other early players' defense, this wasn't possible when the game launched. Many missions/arcs were bugged and broken. For the first month of gameplay only 1 task force that I knew of was even remotely functional enough for anyone I knew to complete (and it wasn't Positron's!) Accolades could be missed entirely. And badges didn't exist. At least when some of us first started levelling, this is what CoH was like.

:P

[Wubao]

Which promises? I can see why people would quit because of the nerfs (never mind that I hold the opinion that nothing is broken, just that people are unwilling to step back a bit and re-evaluate what they can handle), but what promises have been broken?

(If you can't tell, I'm getting tired of hearing "broken promises" - because I don't see any promises being made.)

Since I haven't played the game in about 6 months I'm simply going to ask some questions. Maybe this stuff has been implemented in my absence.

1- Have they created any new level 50 content? A task force? A zone? A series of missions?
2- Did they ever create the skills system that was supposed to be Statesman's answer to tradeskills?
3- Did they ever create new costume options like trenchcoats?
4- Did they ever create those new special archetypes like winged heroes/villains?
5- Did they ever create the flashback system that was promised ages ago, so players could go back and complete content they missed out on?
6- Did they ever create the shields powerset? Or any other new powersets they promised? The last new powersets I remember heroes getting were sonics and archery.
7- Have they gone in and filled out the last 10 levels of the City of Villains content? That game launched sadly incomplete.
8- Have they tweaked the in-game "terminals" to be at all interesting? There were many ideas/promises regarding those that seemed to just get lost in the shuffle.
9- Have they done anything to deal with supergroup management? Member caps? Better ability to clean house and get rid of long gone players who aren't online anymore? Better ability to change leadership? Stuff like that.
10- Have they mentioned word one about vehicles?
11- What ever happened to the idea of more destructible and interactive environments?
12- Have they done anymore non-combat oriented content? I know they did the firey building thing in Steel Canyon when I still played. Have they done anything beyond that?
13- Have they added anymore chest icons to character creation?
14- Have they added anymore cape styles since City of Villains?
15- What new villain groups have been added since CoV launch?
16- Can solo heroes/villains have "lairs" or "bases"? I know during CoV beta there was much chatter about this, and Statesman specifically promised there'd be functionality allowing the hero or villain to have their own solo "lair" and not be beholden to the base system as much. But I never stuck around to see how that all played out after launch day.
17- Speaking of CoV, how is the state of PvP? I remember feedbacking multiple times that the presence of stalkers' 1-shot kills would pretty much be a HUGE point of contention among the playerbase. And I remember casually perusing the forums a week after launch day to be justified in that feedback, which felt good considering how flamed I was for feedbacking that all through beta. What have they done to deal with that kind of PVP madness? My friend who still plays told me something about powerful 1-shots leaving players instead of dead, with just 1 hp? Sounds like a Statesman solution.

Anyways ... those are just some of the questions I have regarding "promises" or "content" that never seemed to happen in the game while I played.

[guice666]

4- Did they ever create those new special archetypes like winged heroes/villains?
Oh yeah! I remember that one. I was hoping to add wings to Krawl. A demonic looking CoH character of mine. Never been implemented. :(

[Sontor]

As usual Wubao summed up my opinion very well.

When we started the game there were many flaws that many of us put up with because it was a fresh new game with a fresh new developer attitude about listening to player feedback (so we thought at the time).

It was a great start, and could have been a much bigger success than it was/is. The game had a great feel to it, and the player base was forgiving and motivated. Slowly but surely the nerfs that we all know about, and the broken promises that Wubao laid out.. just drove a stake through it for many players, including me.

I do have one thing that I will always give thanks to CoH for, and that is they were the first MMO to get my wife to break down and start gaming with me.

[Dalantia]

The problem is that none of those things you listed, were ever listed to be "out by x". You cite them as broken promises, when they've never promised you anything. It's a nice phrase to get people riled up, broken promises. But it's being deceptive.

And you know it.

[Sontor]

Aw, c'mon Dalantia don't be ridiculous. All those things Wubao listed were promised. Those things were mentioned in interviews with Statesman (back when he was a rock star). They were hinted at in developer posts in the forums. They were asked about in the forums and developers were not the slightest bit concerned about releasing too much information, they just went ahead and talked about some of them like they were on the way next issue. You act like if it wasn't in the patch notes it was never listed.

I understand you still play and still like the game and nobody is criticizing you for it.

Don't criticize us for not playing because we have real and valid reasons for it. If you disagree with what we have to say that's fine but to just suggest that all this stuff is made up is being dishonest.

And for the record, your comment nerfs was a bit off the mark too. This whole thread started with all of us agreeing (except Wiou) that fire tankers were out of control on release and something had to be done. So I don't think you are dealing with a bunch of God mode players here.

[Dalantia]

They promised that they were -planned-, not that they were going to be out in a year. If you want to say "Their dev priorities are screwed up", I will be right there with you agreeing. Not that they broke some mythical promise to you to make the content that you wanted, and to make it NOW.

(It's more the "broken promises" line that is causing great anger from me than anything else, to be honest ^_^ I understand that you don't like the game, and I'm not criticizing you for it. It's the drive to paint the dev team as dishonest that is annoying me.)

[ArmsmanCoH]

The problem is that none of those things you listed, were ever listed to be "out by x". You cite them as broken promises, when they've never promised you anything. It's a nice phrase to get people riled up, broken promises. But it's being deceptive.

And you know it.

Um, hate to break it to you, but the SSooCS (aka the Skills system) was PROMISED directly by Statesman himself to be in issue 4 (you know, the one that added the Universities in all the city zones); then delayed til issue 5; and at last report now on 'indefinite hold'.

Flashback was promised by issue 5; but then taken back to 'evalustion status'.

Before you start stating 'facts'; it would be best if you did a little research. I was on the CoH BBS back in Oct. 2000; and in the second wave of beta testers (back when only 300 people were testing the game on one server); so, I have an excellent memory of was WAS promised, and what was delivered.

[Sontor]

They promised that they were -planned-, not that they were going to be out in a year.

Semantics, so I'm not even going to argue like that. If someone tells me something is going to happen.. and it doesn't?... that is a broken promise in my book.

[Dalantia]

Do you remember why it's on indefinite hold? (His exact words, I believe, were "because it's not fun".)

And would you rather they never spoke a thing about any updates until it was about to go on test?

*shrug* I suppose we have different tastes in development openness. I'd rather know that they have this list of things they're working on, even if the order isn't in what I like, than know barely anything about what's comng.

[Wubao]

I wasn't trying to be deceptive at all. I was just rounding up some stuff that I remember from my playing days. I really was hoping that Statesman and crew had delivered on some of that stuff.

I really did like CoH. I still like the concept. I really did like their dev team.

I don't like the direction the game went in. I don't like their idea of content.

Also, try to remember, that through it all, I tried to stick with the game. It wasn't any of the nerfs or changes that drove me from the game. It was a transparent move on their part regarding something sooooo simple ... the naming policy. That drove me from the game. And has no place in this dicussion other than to try and point out to you that but for that unrelated policy, I'd still be playing this game. Nerfs and all.

And I genuinely had hoped more had been done on that list I tossed up. I don't even think I touched on half the stuff people got upset about with that game.

:-(

[The Yanger]

The ridiculous loss of names sure doesn't entice people to come back, I'm sure.
I have no desire to leave WoW, but if I did I couldn't seriously consider CoH without getting The Startling Stupendous Centurion back in action.

[ArmsmanCoH]

Do you remember why it's on indefinite hold? (His exact words, I believe, were "because it's not fun".)

And would you rather they never spoke a thing about any updates until it was about to go on test?

*shrug* I suppose we have different tastes in development openness. I'd rather know that they have this list of things they're working on, even if the order isn't in what I like, than know barely anything about what's comng.

Given Statesman's defoinition of "fun"; I WOULD have liked to see the skill system they had in mind on the Test server, yes. Given that he nerfed Tankers because he felt if he didn't (his own words) .."why would anyone play anything but a Tanker"; I do sometimes wonder about Statesman's definition of fun. He sounds like one of those old Pen&paper players that just played the 'best' class, etc; and it seems he brings that mindset to his on-line game development, and it shows.

If you go by his statements, the main reason he trys to homogenize everything is because he's afraid once the 'best' AT combo is known, that's all people will play. He seems unable tlo graps that some players may have a different playstyle from himself; and as such may have different reasons for playing all types of characters.

Jack has shown himself MANY times to be out of touch with his playerbase and his own Dev team MANY times ([b]Positron's 'Arch-Menisis' system being constantly on the backburner as another example).

So, again, yes, just because Jack says it's "not fun"; based on Jack's definition of "Fun"; I for one would have welconmed the chjance to see his Skill system on Test before he unilaterally decided to scrap it.

[WiouXev]

guice, you confuse me.

CoH is a perfect system for pvp